5 times prayers is not in the Quran
I’m a moslem. Until I was 24, I do the 5 times prayers. Then I started questioning the religion. I read lots of books about religion, philosophy and spiritual items. At that time, I stopped the 5 times prayers, stopped fasting because I have doubts.
I came back to Jakarta and had lots of trouble in my life, so I got back again doing the ritual, but still questioning what islam is all about, because I only know it from my parents and other people. This time, I grabbed the Qur’an and read the so-called book of guidance for people. Suddenly, it all make sense. At that time, I decided that I am a moslem by choice.
I got married with a man who also read the Qur’an and only the Qur’an. We both learn the book. We don’t believe in the 5x prayers, fasting, haj, slaughtering cows and sheep (I’m a vegetarian). We do prayers like what is said in the Qur’an. We respect all the prophets the same. All in all, we read the Qur’an.
When I got divorced, I was taken by a friend of mine to a place to calm myself to get close to God. I was in deep depression and I started praying (still my way). But then I started to do the 5 x prayers again. I felt peace because I pray together praising God with my fellow friends. I feel happy being around with people that are good and gives me positive vibes. Yet, I still read the Qur’an, learn what is being written, and what a person should be like.
But still, I don’t find why we have to do the 5x prayer like how people do it. I don’t see the cookbook of haji. What fasting is all about. I don’t see it. So why are people doing it? I sometimes do it, but day by day, I begin to leave the prayers again. I don’t see it in the Qur’an. And I don’t do things that is not written.
Syariah?
Syariah is manmade. It is clearly said in the QUr’an that a person should have faith in the Qur’an and the messages before (Bible, Torah).
Now I don’t say the prayer because it is a hassle to wear the clothing. Now I say my prayer every breath I take. I sometimes feel guilty but I am confused.
May 10, 2007 at 1:42 am
i admire ur courage mbak, most people wouldn’t dare to question religion…..
May 20, 2007 at 5:03 am
I’m concerned to see the quality of moslems like you. You don’t know what you’re talking about but still you want to talk about something without knowledge. I’m just wondering how many moslems people like you in this world who possess superficial minds. If you wanna become christian and want to promote the pagan’s idea (son of god like Hercules, etc) or you’re indeed a christian like a wolf in sheep’s clothing just let the whole world know
The Five Times Are Specified in the Quran
(1) The Dawn Contact Prayer is mentioned by name in 24:58. Before sunrise.
(2) The Noon Contact Prayer is specified in 17:78. When the sun declines.
(3) The Afternoon Contact Prayer is in 2:238. Midway between noon & sunset.
(4) The Sunset Contact Prayer is mentioned in 11:114. Immediately after sunset.
(5) The Night Contact Prayer is in 11:114, and is mentioned by name in 24:58.
May 21, 2007 at 7:37 am
Leo, thanks for visiting my blog.
I know how many people have the quality like you, following the rituals without even questioning how it should be done. Have you ever questioned how the prophets and the people before Mohammed say their prayers? It is clearly stated that we should follow and belive all the prophets without comparison, without making any distinction between one and another, may that be Mohammed, Jesus, Abraham, Noah, etc. I would dare to say Abraham does not say the 5 times prayer like we do nowdays, with the Ruku and sujud, 4 raka’at and what is said during the prayers. If you think logically, would Abraham say the 2 shadat during his prayer, when Mohammed was not even born?
On christianity, check this out:
Obviously God promised no grieve to those who are believers. And among other religions, God has already mentioned that the christians are the nearest in friendship, even when the Quraisy’ people, when they were chasing the followers of Mohammed, they asked for help and shelter to a country where the king was a Christian.
The 5x prayer is a ritualy invented by people after Mohammed, which is for the uniformity, for togetherness between the moslems. There is nothing bad about it at all, and it encouraged to do good things together. But is it true it should be done in such current fashion? If the way and the readings are told by God, there shouldn’t be the differece in what we read during those prayers. Instead, there are differences and debates on what you read in the opening of the prayer.
Maybe you dig into the Qur’an before judging, Leo?
peace
May 23, 2007 at 5:02 am
Peace be upon you,
I hope this links will help you to find the truth…
http://www.free-minds.org/ and http://www.aididsafar.com/
Peace,
Nadhir
June 8, 2007 at 11:26 pm
parvita, Please tell us what do you call the 5 ritual prayers in Arabic? If you say “Salat” then you better check how the root of this word and its derivatives are used in the Quran.
The word “salat” is used for the Children of Israel, for Jesus, for prophet Shuib, for the animal Kingdom, and for the Idol worshipers too. They all do the “Salat”. If we asemble all the verses in the Quran where we find the word “salat”, we will have a big peoblem to explain how this word could mean “5 daily ritual prayers”.
July 24, 2007 at 8:33 am
Hi there,
Allah S.W.T Commanded us to perform our duties in the holy qur’an e.g worship him alone, perform salat,zakkah etc.
of what i’ve understood from your above note:
You didn’t believe in fasting ( but fasting is one of the commandment from the qur’an)
“Oh you who believe, fasting is prescribed for you as it was prescribed for those before you, so that you may learn self restraint.” Quran Sura 2, Aya 183.
You have to learn this religion from a knowledgable person, not just read and try to understand, because your own experience may not be enough to comprehend this religion..
5 times Salat do exist in the qur’an
taken from http://www.submission.org/salat-where.html
Many Muslims do not know that all the five prayers are mentioned in the Quran, their time is clearly mentioned in several verses and that all the steps we do are found also in the Quran.
{1} FIVE PRAYERS A DAY AND THEIR TIME :
God gave us the times for the Salat (contact Prayers) in the Quran :
(1) The Dawn Prayer (Fajr in Arabic) given in 11:114, 24:58
(2) The Noon Prayer (Zuher in Arabic) , given in 17:78 and 30:18
(3) The Afternoon Prayer (Asr in Arabic), given in 2:238
(4) The sunset Prayer (Maghrib in Arabic), given in 11:114
(5) The Night Prayer (Isha in Arabic), given in 24:58
As you can see from the Quran, God tells us to do our Contact prayers (Salat) at specific times, and then He tells us what these times are.
{2} TAKBEER (Glorification of God), Allahu Akbar : The Takbeer (glorification of God) by saying Allahu Akbar for example can be found in 17:111, 2:185, 22 :37, 74:3, and 29:45
[17:110-111] ” Say, “Call Him GOD, or call Him the Most Gracious; whichever name you use, to Him belongs the best names.” You shall not utter your Contact Prayers (Salat) too loudly, nor secretly; use a moderate tone. And proclaim: “Praise be to GOD, who has never begotten a son, nor does He have a partner in His kingship, nor does He need any ally out of weakness,” and magnify Him constantly (Kabberho Takbeera).”
hope this helps
July 25, 2007 at 5:05 am
muslims believe in hadeeth because hadeeth is the closest recorded actions/teachings of the prophet Muhammad P.U.B.H. However there are strong, weak, sahih or not sahih hadeeth
it is rather confusing and has contradictory statements, therefore hadeeth is really hard to learn, and we need to be really cautious in learning them.
Taken from your above comment
• I would dare to say Abraham does not say the 5 times prayer like we do nowdays, with the Ruku and sujud, 4 raka’at and what is said during the prayers. If you think logically, would Abraham say the 2 shadat during his prayer, when Mohammed was not even born?
I guess Abraham would say sahadat as “la ila ha ilallah “ without having the “ muhammadarasullullah “
You must remember, qur’an has perfected guidance from previous believes such as Judaism and Christianity
Also Abraham’s teaching would be perfected in the qur’an such as bellow:
FASTING CAME TO US VIA ABRAHAM: then modified in the Quran.
“You are permitted to have sexual intercourse with your wives during the night of fasting; they are your confidantes, and you are their confidantes. God knew that you used to betray your souls in the past. He has redeemed you, and He has pardoned you. Henceforth, you may have intercourse with them, seeking what God has permitted for you.” part of 2:187
“O you who believe, fasting is decreed for you, AS IT WAS DECREED for those before you, that you may attain salvation.” 2:183
As you see above, what we do today may not necessarily exactly the same as what Abraham would teach us.
August 2, 2007 at 7:24 am
John said:
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My comments:
In other words you are following a confused religion! You have strong and weak belief and you also have sahih (authentic) and not sahih (non-authentic) teachings. BTW, talking of Hadith outside the Quran please read the following:
“Shall we treat the Muslims like the guilty? What is wrong with you? How do you judge? Do you have another book that you apply? The one that gives you anything you want? (Quran Chapter 68 Verse 35-38).
This is what Goid says about Hadith:
“God sent down the BEST HADITH a Book that is consistent, and it describes both ways. The skin of those who reverence their Lord shudder because of it, consequently their skins and hearts soften and readily receive God’s message. That is God’s guidance, thus He guides with it whomever He pleases. But the one who is misquided by God can never be guided. (Quran 39:23)
Br. John, God is asking you in 68:35-38 if you have other books as a source of guidance besides the Quran or not? What is your answer to God’s words when He saya the BEST HADITH (Ahsanal Hadith) is the Quran and nothing else?
The truth is, there is nothing in the Quran or other Hadith books to show you the methods of how to pray five times a day. In reality praying ritually is a pagan practice which the Arabs picked up from Hinduism who worship rocks and stones. Only the shapes of the stone idols are different. Obviously the Arabs prefer a square rock structure and they plugged-in a small black stone at one corner encased with a femal vulva shaped alluminium.
Br. John gave us the following link to justify his claim that the Quran gives detail of the 5 ritual prayers:
http://www.submission.org/salat-where.html
Firstly, sumission.org does not accept any hadith outside the Quran, they have thrown all the hadiths written by Br. John’s great Imams into the garbage 20 years ago. But Br. John is a strong believer of the authentic and non-authentic hadiths.
Secondly, none of the verses quoted by submission.ogr explains the methods of the five pagan ritual prayers the Muslims are doing today.
In conclusion, the Quran does not give us the method of how to pray like the pagans who show their backside to the sky. And the worst thing is – the sahih and not sahih book of the hadiths written by Br. John’s great Imams are silent about the methods too.
IpohMali
August 5, 2007 at 12:32 am
I am just doing my regular blogwalking and found this interesting discussion. Allow me to share my own experience.
Well, I am a simple, not so smart, and a very happy man, and I do 5 times Shalat. Simply because it is delicious for my soul. Shalat always bring me pure joy and happiness inside my heart, and keep it there for the rest of the time. I was also skeptical about Shalat, even didn’t do Shalat. But maybe because human being is also a spiritual being, then my soul start its journey to find the best way to communicate with it’s source. So I tried meditation, yoga, and many other methods. Including my own praying method.
But then I found that Shalat is the best way for me to communicate with my source. I thank to whoever invented Shalat. Shalat perfectly combine the practice for the heart, mind, and body. That’s why we should do certain movement, while whispering certain prayer. And that was my mistake before. Previously, I didn’t put attention on my heart, mind and body while doing Shalat. That’s why my Shalat was like another sport for me, where speed does matters . The truth is that Shalat is just like a moving meditation that can easily bring us in a khusyu condition.
In a khusyu condition, our brainwave is at “alpha state”. Relaxed, and access to our subconscious mind is wide open. And this access is so powerful if you know how to use it. That’s explain why it is strongly suggested to do dzikr and pray after Shalat. While in daily work we are at beta state that easily can bring us to stress, alpha state give us so many benefits, for our heart and our mind. But its more than that. I can not explain in words, you should do it by yourself to experience khusyu. When conducted properly, in one or two rakaat we can achieve that khusyu condition. Can you imagine the benefit of doing that in 17 rakaat a day? And the timing for doing that are so perfect. 2 rakaat when we wake up in the morning, 4 during our lunch break, 4 after work in the evening, 3 before dinner, and 4 before sleep. Just perfect for me.
So, for me Shalat is a gift to us, not an obligation. Shalat is just FUUUNtastic. In fact, not only moslem interested in Shalat and dzikr. I have Brighton and Australian friends who studied dzikr and Shalat, and even practice dzikr regularly. The same thing happened in the US. Do you know that the Shaikh (highest ulema) of Maulana Jalaludin Rumi order is a US citizen. His name is Kabir Helminski. And Kabir do 5 times Shalat with discipline. There are many books on Shalat now available for western people. One of the best is: The Illuminated Prayer: The Five-Times Prayer of the Sufis, by Coleman Barks & Michael Green. So many people in western world start to realize the benefits of Shalat, while in Indonesia so many people stop practicing Shalat. Isn’t that interesting?
August 13, 2007 at 5:05 am
Please understand Ipohmali,
I’m aware of the site that i’ve provided being a non hadeeth believer, It doesn’t matter where I take the information from as long as this site BELIEVES IN THE QUR’AN and has reference to it as I just wanted to PROVE that 5 times SALAT do EXIST in the QUR’AN, and it does. It doesn’t matter how you perform it because EVERYONE HAS DIFFERENT WAYS.(and they MAY not necessarily be wrong)
I DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU MEANT BY “MUSLIM TODAY”, because there are so many kinds of muslims in this world and they pray differently. see how many kinds of muslims pray in mecca and yet they are united.
as of everyone has different understanding. god sees through our INTENTION.
anyhow and anyway,
is that how your belief taught you of how to behave?, you have no respect in others belief. i wouldn’t ASK you to grow up, as I assume that u’re already are. maybe just a little less guided. may Allah guide you to the right path!
stop thiking your way is the most right, bcuz only god knows best.
I respect what you believe in. sharing your knowledge of what you believe in is fine, but start offensing other’s belief, is what i call childish and immature
September 15, 2007 at 5:51 am
yup there are no 5 times prayer there.. exactly it’s everytime prayer that said there..
I’m moslem.. and I do prayer everytime.. by doin it, I realize that I exist.. it’s a personal relationship between me and ‘you know who’, I would ignore anyone who try to interfere it, and I wont interested to interfere other personal matters..
we may talk about it, but I won’t suggest anyone to disturbs other’s believe.. it’s just like sex matter right?
September 15, 2007 at 10:27 pm
I was bought up Christian. Now I believe in nothing, other than myself and my abilities. I know good Christians who never pray, and bad Christians who go to church regularly.
Praying, the act of going through a motion, achieves nothing. It is an act of compliance. Even worse, it is an act of compliance to pacify others. The Vicar who says “We don’t see you in church peeebs”.
Religion is a pacifier for the masses. It was created to answer questions we cannot answer. What happens when I die? Why am I here? Then it became a social control mechanism. “Tho shalt not kill”!
The world would be a better place if ALL religions were banned.
September 16, 2007 at 7:21 am
I think nobody is interfering with anybody’s way of performing sholat. Prayer is an actualization that you believe in God, that you are nothing without God.
It is not the act, but the state of how they pray. Not the physical act. At the end of the day, people who have faith in God will always have God in their mind, and always say prayers, not only 5 times a day but as long as they are still breathing. And one should only follow what is in the Qur’an if one admits that they are moslem.
Moreover, who says that you have to face to some direction when you pray?
Check 2:115 To God belong the East and the West; whithersoever you turn, there is the Face of God; God is All-embracing, All-knowing (Dan kepunyaan Allah-lah timur dan barat, maka kemanapun kamu menghadap di situlah wajah Allah. Sesungguhnya Allah Maha Luas (rahmat-Nya) lagi Maha Mengetahui).
So why face to one particular place when praying while God is everywhere?
Just a question from a person still learning.
September 17, 2007 at 2:14 am
Islam is the perfect religion and the last religion come from the God…anybody can choose their own religion, Christian, Buddhist, Hindus etc…
But busybrain..why you questioned? God don’t give people to think that far..is out the limit what the human can do and think.. example people can make everything..machine, technology and nowadays can clone the human as well but can they create the soul..?? do u know when u gonna die…and the answer is we don’t know because God don’t give that ability for us to know.
So I think you one of the unlucky people which the door of faith close for you..shame on you…
September 17, 2007 at 7:37 am
Cintacinta (lovelove, what a nice choice of name!), what do you mean by ‘to think that far’?
Why question? Because I think. If the prophets didn’t think, they wouldn’t have got enlightened. If they weren’t enlightened, there would not be words of God. They would’ve been kafir, if they just follow what their fathers follow.
If Abraham had not questioned, he would’ve been kafir like his father. He searched for the real God, thus God enlightened him. His life was miserable because people thought he was a threat. Muhammad and his followers were the same, stoned. They said it was ’sihir’, black magic, a lie. When Galileo said the earth evolves around the sun, the church wanted to kill him. So did Copernicus went through the same situation.
God gave Quran to us for us to understand, as guidance. God differed human from the other kinds, with mind and brain to think. Why should one limit themself? It is a great gift from God. Not everybody is smart enough and have the ability to question what they are told to believe in.
Islam is for those who think, who has a mind. It has been written repeatedly in the Quran.
Ibrahim 52: (Al Quran) ini adalah penjelasan yang sempurna bagi manusia, dan supaya mereka diberi peringatan dengan-Nya, dan supaya mereka mengetahui bahwasanya Dia adalah Tuhan Yang Maha Esa dan agar orang-orang yang berakal mengambil pelajaran.
(AlQuran) is the complete enlightment for human, so they will be reminded by HIM, and so they know that He is the only One and for those with minds take the lesson.
peace
September 18, 2007 at 5:48 pm
Saying Islam is the perfect religion is like saying drowning is the best way of dying.
no religion is perfect. It is a prop for fools who cannt stand without one…..
September 20, 2007 at 1:22 pm
“So why face to one particular place when praying while God is everywhere? ”
That is the point. Why do we have to bow down to some statues/images when God is in fact everywhere?
ARe they written in the Holy Book??? No. Infact one of God’s commandment is “Thou shall not have any gods before me.”
Even if people would say, “well we worship God’s image..We worship God only…”
ARe they sure that these images are of God’s?
..and again the commandment says “You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.”
September 20, 2007 at 1:39 pm
Leo may well be “I’m concerned to see the quality of moslems like you.”
I would be more happy if he were concerned to see the quality of the more radical Muslims who bomb and kill to advance their ideas.
September 24, 2007 at 6:52 am
@ cintacinta
please… would you be very kind to say it… shame on us ? all of us the one who seek on our OWN way to get to ‘you know who’ ? if you do.. then thank you verry much in advance.
I see that most religious people are the one who is always judge people, I guess that’s becouse they THINK that they are already ‘the god’ himself. Bravo (*standing aplouse*) to them. Well at least if ‘the god’ put me in hell it would be nice.. since I’m not in the same place as he is.
btw.. saying islam as the perfect religion is the most ridiculus thing to someone who doesn’t willing to learn… its like saying that :
even GOD himself need time to made perfect the religion. LOL
@peeebs
I would concern with what and how our thought give us things at this moment.
September 28, 2007 at 8:05 am
Parvita, I noticed that you haven’t respond to John’s comments, and decided to raise another issue about facing the Ka’bah in our prayers.
Your claims that the Shalat and fasting in the month of Ramadhan was not mentioned in the Quran had been clearly explained by John.
5 times Salat do exist in the qur’an
taken from http://www.submission.org/salat-where.html
You didn’t believe in fasting ( but fasting is one of the commandment from the qur’an)
“Oh you who believe, fasting is prescribed for you as it was prescribed for those before you, so that you may learn self restraint.” Quran Sura 2, Aya 183.
“If you think logically, would Abraham say the 2 sahadat during his prayer, when Mohammed was not even born?”
Ibrahim’s (a.s.) sahadat would not necessarily include the faith in Muhammad (s.a.w) because Ibrahim (a.s.) was not the ummah of Muhammad (s.a.w). Only Muhammad’s (s.a.w) ummah (like us) needed to say the “Asyhadu anna Muhammadur Rasulullah”.
As for your latest claims that there’s nothing in the Quran that tells us that we have to face a certain direction when you pray, here it is:
Qur’an 2:149 “And from wheresoever you start forth (for prayers), turn your face in the direction of Al-Masjid-al-Haram (at Makkah), that is indeed the truth from your Lord. And Allah is not unaware of what you do.”
Qur’an 2:115 was referring to a special situation when we must pray during our travel (i.e. in a plane, car, etc.) that we are exempted from the obligation to face in the direction of Makkah, and we can face wherever the vehicle is currently facing.
Parvita, obviously you need to learn a lot more about your own religion. And those knowledge, unfortunately, can’t be attained from your scientific studies alone. As John had mentioned, “You have to learn this religion from a knowledgeable person, not just read and try to understand, because your own experience may not be enough to comprehend this religion..”
September 28, 2007 at 8:17 am
Here’s a good link for Qur’an-only folks like IpohMali, you need to answers the questions there:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/refutation_to_quranists.htm
September 28, 2007 at 2:37 pm
Do you believe that God is Almighty? Why does he need people, who are His creation, to complete the Qur’an? That makes him incomplete, does it?
And why did God said in 2:4
…And who believe in that which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) and that which was revealed before thee, and are certain of the Hereafter.
Clearly says “before thee”. NOT AFTER THEE.
Anybody can enlight my simple busybrain?
September 28, 2007 at 3:09 pm
Jaka on facing to one particular place:
Here is 2:177
It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces to the East and the West; but righteous is he who believeth in Allah and the Last Day and the angels and the Scripture and the prophets; and giveth wealth, for love of Him, to kinsfolk and to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask, and to set slaves free; and observeth proper worship and payeth the poor-due. And those who keep their treaty when they make one, and the patient in tribulation and adversity and time of stress. Such are they who are sincere. Such are the Allah-fearing
And 26:28
(Moses) said: “Lord of the East and the West, and all between! if ye only had sense!”
And 70:40-41
Now I do call to witness the Lord of all points in the East and the West that We can certainly- Substitute for them better (men) than they; And We are not to be defeated (in Our Plan).
On your defense that 2:115 is only for travellers, where does it say that in the Qur’an? Share, please? 2:115 is universal.
All the verses I pointed out says that God is everywhere, it doesn’t matter where you face yourself. If Masjidil Haram is the one in Mecca, it contradicts these verses. And there shouldn’t be any contradiction in the Qur’an (if you are a believer).
So what is wrong, maybe the interpretation of Masjidil Haram?
Masjidil Haram is built way after Mohammed received this verse. I don’t think Masjidil Haram means as straight forward as you think. I think it means deeper than that. For a start: Masjid, a place where you rest your body and soul for peace. Haram, is haram, not halal. Where is a place, where you rest your soul, which contains haram stuff as well?
Any thought? Shall we start another blog on Masjidil Haram?
Jaka, the consequences of making up things that are not in the Qur’an is pretty scary (dig it out yourself), you aware of that of course?
peace
September 29, 2007 at 9:32 am
“Do you believe that God is Almighty? Why does he need people, who are His creation, to complete the Qur’an? That makes him incomplete, does it?”
Muhammad (s.a.w) was a messenger and was also an example for Muslims to follow. He is a ‘living Qur’an’, a person who had done everything that Allah SWT had prescribed through the Qur’an. Hadith is a collection of other people’s (the companions) account on Muhammad’s (s.a.w) words and actions during his lifetime, words and actions which are all based on the Qur’an.
Qur’an 33:21 “Indeed in the Messenger of Allah (Muhammad SAW) you have a good example to follow for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allah and the Last Day and remembers Allah much.”
Hence, the Hadith was not a supplementary part of the Qur’an or a final building block of the Qur’an that makes it complete, as you suggested. If the Qur’an is a guide for mankind, then Muhammad’s (s.a.w) Hadith is the Qur’an in action, unless you believed that Muhammad’s (s.a.w) words and actions had went astray outside what the Qur’an had taught. Or did you?
Here are some Qur’anic reference regarding the Hadith (watch for the capitalized words) :
Qur’an 4:80 “He who OBEYS THE MESSENGER, OBEYS ALLAH: But if any turn away, We have not sent thee to watch over their (evil deeds).”
Qur’an 36:69 “We have not instructed the (Prophet) in Poetry, nor is it meet for him: this is no less than a MESSAGE and a QUR’AN making things clear.”
Note that there are two things that Allah SWT mentioned in the verse: a Message and a Qur’an. What does “a Message” mean? Obviously the Hadith.
You must have noticed that there are a lot of verses in the Qur’an that says, “Allah AND His Messenger” – Why would so many verses of the Qur’an stress this point? Why did it not just say “Obey Allah (only)”? – Therefore the Qur’an is indicating two sources of information and authority – the words of Allah SWT (the Qur’an) and those of prophet Muhammad’s (s.a.w)
There are still many more verses of the Qur’an that say to obey Allah and his Messenger, they are too many to list all here, so I will just list some of the other verses by number: 3:32, 3:132, 4:59, 5:92, 8:1, 8:20, 8:46, 9:71, 24:47, 24:51, 24:52, 24:54, 33:33, 33:66, 33:71, 47:33, 48:17, 49:7, 49:14, 58:13, 64:12
“Clearly says “before thee”. NOT AFTER THEE.”
First of all, obviously Muhammad (s.a.w) performed the Hadith AT THE SAME TIME as when he received the Qur’an. He received the verses of the Qur’an and then he explained and reflected them through his words and actions (the Hadith). The Hadith might have been compiled much later than the Qur’an, but that doesn’t meant it came after the revelation of the Qur’an, because both happened at the same time.
If the Qur’anic revelation had been completed and only after it’s completion Muhammad (s.a.w) started to explain and practice the Qur’anic teachings (the Hadith) then perhaps we can say that the Hadith came after the Qur’an, but that’s not the case.
I think ‘which was revealed before thee’ refers to the Torah, the Zabur, and the Injeel. Besides, the Qur’an will never say “after thee” because that will imply that there are other prophets after Muhammad (s.a.w) and that he was not the last prophet.
September 29, 2007 at 11:11 am
“All the verses I pointed out says that God is everywhere, it doesn’t matter where you face yourself.”
Parvita, the verses didn’t say that Allah SWT is everywhere, you conclude that yourself. The verses imply that Allah SWT is the owner of the East and West, He is the owner of the universe. That His power encompasses all directions and everything there in. Those verses merely point to the fact that Allah SWT is everywhere but only by His Knowledge, His Seeing, His Hearing and His Power. Tell me, where is the exact wording that says that Allah SWT is everywhere?
Be careful Parvita, because this kind of belief amounts to no less than pantheism-the belief that God is everywhere, in everything, and thus close to shirk.
The two most common standard believe in Islam regarding Allah SWT are:
1. Allah SWT exists without a place, because He is unlimited by time and space while the universe consists of time and place.
Please take the time and read more on: http://www.amislam.com/without.htm
2. Allah SWT is above the Heavens separate from the creations but among His creations by His Hearing, His Seeing and His Knowledge.
Read more to get a better picture: http://www.missionislam.com/knowledge/whereallah.htm
Other good resources regarding this matter:
http://www.albalagh.net/qa/where_Allah.shtml
http://www.islambasics.com/view.php?bkID=8
“So what is wrong, maybe the interpretation of Masjidil Haram?”
Actually, there are other meanings to the term haram besides ‘not halal’
A. a Haram is a sanctuary, a sacred territory. Mecca has been considered a Haram since the time of Abraham. All things within the limit of the Haram are protected and considered inviolable Madinah was also declared a Haram by the Prophet.
(http://www.islamcan.com/dictionary/cgi-bin/csvsearch.pl?search=haram)
B. Ḥaram can also mean an Islamic holy site of very high sanctity. The two sites whose Islamic sanctity is unchallengeably the highest of all are Mecca and Medina in Arabia, so that the Arabic dual form الحرمان al-ḥaramān or الحرمين or al-ḥaramayn refers to these two places. Since 1986, the Saudi monarchy has disclaimed all royal titles except “Custodian of the Two Holy Sanctuaries” or “Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques”.
(http://www.answers.com/topic/haram)
C. “HARAM-E-KA’BAH”: The vast area around the holy Makkah having boundary lines on all sides. This include the whole Makkah (city), Minaa and Muzdalifa with the exclusion of’ Arafaat. It is Haraam (unlawful) to hurt the beasts even the wild pigeon(s) within the limits of Haram-e-Ka’bah and even to uproot the grass of the holy land is unlawful.
(http://www.islamicacademy.org/html/Books/GLIS/rtj.htm)
So Masjidil Haram can only mean the Masjid in Makkah that holds the Ka’bah, which direction we must face during our Shalats according to Qur’an 2:149.
Wallahu’alam.
September 29, 2007 at 4:05 pm
Here it is.
2:115. Dan kepunyaan Allah-lah timur dan barat, maka kemanapun kamu menghadap di situlah wajah Allah. Sesungguhnya Allah Maha Luas (rahmat-Nya) lagi Maha Mengetahui.
(To Allah belong the east and the West: Whithersoever ye turn, there is the presence of Allah. For Allah is all-Pervading, all-Knowing).
Pretty clear, at least, for me.
Anybody expert in history knows when Masjidil Haram was built? What year?
October 1, 2009 at 10:01 am
Dear parvita, have just seen your blog lately and would like to throw some comment with regards to solla and masjidil haram.
My view on this matter is :
MASJIDIL HARAM meaning sanction in submission, it is not a building.
It is god’s law detailing the do’s and don’t thru the quran.
SOLLA / ZAKKA meaning purify your committment towards your obligation.
If you are a teacher, as muslim your commitment is to be the best teacher by teaching what’s needed to all your student without favour and to ensure that they all understand what you teach by asking question and be worried if you are unable to make them understand because your committment . You sacrifice your time and money by showing you care for your student by visiting them at home if they are sick and come meet their parents if you find that particular student have some problem and find ways and mean to rectify them.
Honest in your work , temper free and soft spoken and respected by fellow colleague , on time to work , dress righteous, and are always willing to give out your hand to anyone in need of help.
Those are some of my view on WAAKI MUSOLLA TAWAA TU ZAKKA
AS LAM TU LI RABBIL A LAMIN ( the real shahadah )
Mohamad was ask to follow ABRAHAM
September 30, 2007 at 6:51 am
As I mentioned Parvita, you are reaching too far with your conclusion. Qur’an 2:115 said Allah SWT “owns” the East and the West, but He is NOT the East and the West. As I explained before, Allah SWT only mentioned that He owns the East and the West, His power and authority encompasses the East and the West and everything in between. Allah SWT DID NOT say “I am the East and the West” or “I resides in all thing, in the East and West”. If the verses sounded like that, then we may conclude that Allah SWT is everywhere, but they didn’t.
Perhaps you had mistakenly conclude “To Allah belong the East and the West” into thinking that it meant “Allah belongs to the East and West”. Those two sentences have very different and contrast meanings, and thus present a serious consequences to our understanding of faith. The first sentence meant that the East and the West is Allah’s possession, while the second sentence implied that the East and the West is Allah’s ‘residence’. Qur’an 2:115 used the first sentence, Parvita.
As for the rest of the verse, let’s use other credible and well known interpretations to compare it, as a word in Arabic can have different meanings according to the proper context. Perhaps Yusuf Ali failed to grasp the essence of the true meaning in this verse, or had failed to find the correct words to represent the true meaning.
SHAKIR (2:115) “And Allah’s is the East and the West, therefore, whither you turn, thither is Allah’s purpose; surely Allah is Ample-Giving, Knowing.”
PICKTHALL (2:115) “Unto Allah belong the East and the West, and whithersoever ye turn, there is Allah’s Countenance. Lo! Allah is All-Embracing, All-Knowing.”
Nothing about Allah’s SWT presence in these ones.
You haven’t addressed my previous statement: “Be careful Parvita, because this kind of belief amounts to no less than pantheism (the belief that God is everywhere, in everything) and thus close to shirk.” Do you think that Islam is equal to pantheism?
September 30, 2007 at 7:29 am
A food for thought:
Qur’an 112:4 “And there is none like unto Him.”
Qur’an 29:6 “And if any strive (with might and main), they do so for their own souls: for Allah is free of all needs from all creation.”
It was mentioned that Allah SWT is not equal to His creation, while the universe is His creation. Allah SWT is different, He is unlimited and unbounded by time and space, while the universe is bounded by time and space. If we remember that the East and the West defines space, then He couldn’t possibly be in the East and the West, because that will imply that He is bounded by space. If He is bounded by space then it means Allah SWT is no different than His creation, which contradicts the above verses. He exists without a place (a space within this universe).
October 10, 2007 at 1:22 pm
parvita, I suggest you be wary of those (including some posting in this thread) who may attempt to beguile you, with drawn out opinions and secondary sources lacking in primary evidence. I shall not mention names, they know whom they are.
http://www.free-minds.org/women/scarf.htm
I also post the link above, though it is not directly on topic with this thread. It does however do a good job of pointing out some of the weaknesses of the arguments of those in this thread, which attempt to perpetuate culture as fact, and the myth that is hadith. Going into some detail on how dangerous it can be to use modern recreated definitions when trying to explore the Quran in the first place, and listing examples of how certain words have been twisted in meaning through time out of their intended place.
Your attempt to find knowledge and truth yourself, rather then blindly following others is noble. I wish you much success in your journey.
“You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.” 17:36 Quran
October 10, 2007 at 1:37 pm
Little correction on 17:36:….the hearing, eyesight and brain will be asked for what they were used for.
November 6, 2007 at 11:39 am
Parvita, you are right when you said God is everywhere.
First of all, to be a person at peace or “Muslim” you must believe the “Unseen” or as the Quran says, “Mereka yang beriman dengan yang Ghaib” (2:3). The qualify as a person at Peace one must use his or her “Common Sense” (10:100).
According to the Quran we cannot comprehend what is God because “No vision can ever encompass Him (God), while He (God) encompasses all vision. He is compassionate, the cognizant”. (6:103)
Since He (God) is the One who created us, He (God) is fully aware of our innermost thought and He is closer to us than our Jugular vein. (50:16)
If we use our “Common Sense” we know “GOD IS EVERWHERE” because He told us about it in the Quran! He is “Omnipresent” He (The Unseen God) knows everything what is happening in the Heaven or Earth. We can be in Canada, Indonesia, Japan, Thailand, China, Alaska or Egypt or any part of the world, we cannot avoid His presence. We can discuss openly or secretly, He (The Unseen God) “IS ALWAYS THERE”. People like Jaka who defies his “Common Sense” cannot understand the following verse.
“Do you not realize that God knows everything in the heaven and the Earth? No three people can meet in secret without Him (God) being the forth, nor five without Him (God) being the sixth, nor less than this, nor more, without Him (God) being there. Then on the day of resurrection, He (God) will inform them of everything they did. God is fully aware of all things”. (Quran 58:7)
Peace from Kathy.
December 13, 2007 at 12:03 pm
Parvita, I dont you dont think you know the definition of la’ilahaillallah learn it and do even know what qur’an is, its the word of god, it wasnt written down by man you idiot.
Its was released through revelation by Gibriel As.
Now i dont know exactly where you were educated, or where you recieved your islamic development, because indonesia is where i am from.
remember: “whom allah swt wishes to guide can never be misguided, and whom allah choses to misguide can never be guided”
Where do you fit in? Because i assure you, when you are convinced without even studying the cores of islam that allah swt is ‘false’ then i swear to you and on behalf of all practising moslems that you will be punished….
December 19, 2007 at 10:44 am
was just wondering, do you read the Qur’an itself in the tafsir (translated) form or in its Arabic form? are you well versed in Qur’anic Arab?
just a question.
December 21, 2007 at 8:08 pm
how can you understand the Quran without obeying the one that was sent to explain it sallallahu alayhi wassalam, how can you not be confused when you have abonded his sunnah?
December 21, 2007 at 8:20 pm
The prophets were sent with different shariahs, they had different shariahs but their message was the same. For example, during the time of Yusuf, it was permissable to bow down to other humans, while it has been forbidden for the ummah of Muhammad saws. Marrying siblings was halal for the children of Adam, but it is haram for us. “we make no distinction between them’ means we do not accept some as prophets and reject others, like what the christians and jews do, we accept all of them as messengers. And we are the ummah of Muhammad saws and we follow the shariah he brought.
This is what happens when people start interpreting the quran themselves. your way of thinking makes no sense, being quranists just confuses you more and you cant understand what some verses mean so you make up explanations yourself and you get a dictionary and see what this word can traslate to, and of dozens of meaning, you pick the one that suits you best. no. we hear and obey whatever Muhammad saws told us, and how his companions understood it.
“And We have sent down unto you the Message so that you may explain clearly to the people what is sent for them and so that they may give thought.” (Al-Nahal 16:44).
“Allah did confer a great favor on the believers when He sent among them a Messenger from among themselves, rehearsing unto them the Signs of Allah, purifying them, and instructing them in Scripture and Wisdom, while before that they had been in manifest error.” (Aale Imran 3:164).
“He who obeys the Messenger obeys Allah indeed” (Nisa 4:80).
“And obey Allah and obey His Messenger.”( Al-Taghabun 64:12).
notice that says, obey Allah AND OBEY His Messenger, not just ‘obey Allah and His Messenger’.
Allah has preserved the text and the meaning of the Quran by preserving the sunnah of His Messenger saws.
December 24, 2007 at 11:41 am
Ibnalqayyim said:
I assume you believe your messenger’s name is “Muhammad” and after reading the Quran I agree with you about his name.
When God tells you to obey “His messenger” whose name is Muhammad, then, why the hell do you obey Bukhari, Muslim, Ibn Majah and the rest who wrote the hadiths?
Are they your messengers?
Ibnalqayyim! What happen to your brain? Why don’t you Obey God’s command by obeying your messenger’s teaching from the Quran? This is what our God told our messenger to tell us:
Are you blind Ibnalqayyim? Our prophet said “I SIMPLY FOLLOW WHAT IS REVEALED TO ME”! So Ibnalqayyim, what was “Revealed” to Muhammad? Is is not the Quran? Unfortunately istead of obeying what the messenger said in the Quran you have chosen to “OBEY” what was written by Bukhari and his gang – and they told what they wrote were also what was revealed by God to Muhammad.
You are no better than the Christians who obey Mark, Mathew, Luke and John! But you call them kafir because they don’t “Obey the messenger” and we know for sure those who wrote the Gospels were like Bukhari and his gang.
Ibnalqayyim, do you have any common sense? Please obey your messenger’s advise in 6:50 I have quoted above. Use your common sense. I know your Bukhari told you “NOT” to use your common sense and I wish you luck for obeying him!
Kathy
December 26, 2007 at 5:23 am
Lol. May Allah bless all those who preserved the sunnah, we know what the prophet said and we know those that lie about him. We can trace it back to prophet, and dont think that Imam al-Bukhari was the first to collect hadith, like many of you like to claim. His sayings were written down during the life of the prophet and a sahabi even compiled a book of hadeeth.
Have fun learning how to pray, fast, do hajj from the Quran.
Everything the prophet said in matters of this religion was revealed to him from Allah.
So youre accepting the Quran, but rejecting the explanation of the one that sent the Quran. btw…the Quran came to us from the same people that transmitted the hadeeth to us.
December 26, 2007 at 7:08 am
Ibnalqayyim said:
My reply:
Please read the Quran my good friend. There is no proof the Quran came to us from the same people that transmitted the hadeeth to you. God don’t need any of them to do the job. Listen to what your messenger was told to tell us about the Quran and he knew God in His wisdom will transmit the Quran to mankind around the world in His own way.
Nobody has ever gave any credit to your hadith writers on the transmissions of the Quran. It is a known fact all the hadith writers contradict each other in all matter of God’s deen. Your hadith writers were only good in writing about how your messenger had sex with his wives and how he shit on two bricks facing Jurusalem and how he screwed a six years old child. Since you are a strong sunnah follower I want to ask you a simple question, “Did you ever drink the camel urine when you get a fever”? That is exactly what Bukhari said the messenger have said!
Read the Quran my good friend, whatever God wanted the last prophet to say as a messenger it is all recorded in the Quran. Each time you see the word “Qul” in the Quran please think who said those words – and those were the revealed words or the true hadith of the messenger. Listen to what your messenger said:
Is Bukhari and his gang your messengers Ibnalqayyim? Why do you obey them instead of obeying the message delivered by God’s messenger as written in the Quran? What happen to your common sense? I am asking you again. Is Bukhari and gang your messengers? Why do you obey them? Then why do you talk about “Obey God and Obey His messenger”? If you are a true believer of God – why don’t you do what you say? Read the Quran Ibnalqayyim:-
Orang Malaysia kata: “APA SEBAB CAKAP TAK SERUPA BIKIN”?
Kathy.
December 27, 2007 at 9:03 am
Wow if you are what a muslim is supposed to be, then i don’t want to be one.
It is amazing how a group of people who have never taken the deen seriously or studied come 1400 after and claim everyone else besides them is a kaffir, never in the history of Islam has there been people with your views. Alhamdulilah, ALLAH has made His deen clear and easy to follow. Whoever believes that they need not follow Muhammad SAW has made a seat in the hellfire for themselves.
December 27, 2007 at 9:32 am
Hi all,
I would hope that we don’t judge each other by saying one if kafir without even knowing what ‘kafir’ means. I always go back to the Holy Book when referring to things, so this is what God says about Kafir:
You easily can see these kind of people around us. You point out the obvious in the Qur’an, yet they don’t see it. Yet it is for Allah to judge.
I hope we are not the one that are blind and deaf. And many good discussions in the coming year!
December 28, 2007 at 4:33 pm
Yea so either you people who number in the hundreds, and even agree with each other on simple issues are kaffir, or everyone after the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam has been a kaffir.
Indeed.
December 28, 2007 at 8:51 pm
Ibnalqayyim, it is clear now you cannot see the difference between who is God’s messenger and who is not. If you think by “Obeying the hadith writters mean you are “Obeying the messenger” – then I rest my case.
December 29, 2007 at 7:21 am
Kathy and Ibnalqayyim,
Thank you for the juicy discussion. And Ibnal, thank you for all the quotes from the Qur’an, it is a good reminder for all of us. I just hope that next time please put all the complete sentence because each of the verse has reasons why they were given and passed to the prophets.
If I can pull a red thread, all three of us quote “Believe in Allah and the messengers”.
Who are the messengers? Who is Bukhari? Excuse my question but I have never read his name anywhere in the Qur’an.
January 2, 2008 at 8:36 am
Your ignorance is astounding. The Messenger is Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam. His sayings have been narrated to us from those who were around him to their students, then to their students and so on. For some reason you think Bukhari rahimahullah is the only one that had anything to do with hadith. Ahadith were written down even in the time of the Prophet saws. There was a collection done even by a companion. Read, study the science of hadith and youll understand that its not just hearsay. There are volumes of books written on the biographys of those who narrated hadith. Anyways, which recitation of the Quran do you recite? There are ten ways of recitation the Quran was revelead in all with a chain of narrators going back to the Prophet saws. What do you say about that?
January 3, 2008 at 11:53 pm
Peace,
Thanks for sharing your story.
There’s no 5 prayers in Al-Quran. Now, one has a preconceived mindset that there are, you will find it.
Also, It doesn’t matter how you pray. See 29:45. It’s purpose is the important aspect. In fact, remembering God always takes precedence over salaat itself.
January 4, 2008 at 7:51 am
Ibnalqayyim: I only recite to this one:
Believing and following other books after Muhammad is not mentioned in the Quran.
Not saying that hadith is bad or wrong but it is not a guidance for Moslems. Hadith should be taken carefully and we have to look at the Quran whether it is against it or not, because there are lots of hadith which says things not in the Quran, or even contradict the Quran.
Let me try to write something about Hadith and Qur’an so we can have a proper discussion on this. I am pretty much soaked at work at the moment.
Peace
January 4, 2008 at 11:16 am
“which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad)”
whose talking about what was revelead to anyone else? Whatever Muhammad ibn Abdullah sallallahu alayhi wa sallam said in regards to the deen is wahi – revelation from Allah. “Wama yantiqu AAani alhawa” Nor does he speak of (his own) desire. 53:3
So why reject what the Prophet saws said in his words but accept the Quran he recited? THe source is the same, and its obvious that the Quran says that Muhammad saws explains it and implements the law, he is the human example we follow. Allah couldve sent down an actual book with an angel, but He didnt.
No one is talking about another “book”, just because ahadith are written down to preserve them they are not “books after Muhammad saws”. The Quran was not compiled into a book until after the death of the Prophet saws, so why isnt that “a book after Muhammad saws”.
January 5, 2008 at 8:28 pm
Believe me ibnalqayyim, try as you might, these Quranists will not likely to believe in the Hadith. They use logic as their reasoning, yet they failed to grasp that their Quran-only is a new invention, they didn’t realize that they’re just creating a new schism amidst the Ummah. Their approach have no precedence whatsoever in Islam’s history. Quranists must answer these questions:
1. In Islam 1400 years or so history, Muslims had always believed in the Qur’an and Hadith. What will happen to our predecessors who believed in the Hadith? Will all of them burn in hell for believing in the ‘fake’ hadiths?
2. Name when in Islam’s history that Muslims mostly believed in the Qur’an but abandon the Hadith? Which prominent Islamic figure in history advocated the Qur’an-only approach?
3. Currently about 99% of Muslims worldwide believed in the Qur’an and Hadith. Do you think Allah SWT will let the overwhelming majority of His followers astray and only lead a handful of them to the right path? Then we must put all the Muslims throughout history into the equation. How about those billions of people, will Allah SWT let those faithful followers die while committing shirk (by believing in the so called ‘manmade’ Hadith).
4. IF indeed what you claimed is actually true, instead of being the religion of truth, then Islam is in fact a ‘trap’, a religion which will only guide a minute fraction of it’s followers to the right path, while the rest of the followers will be dumped in hellfire (for believing the the Hadith, which you people claimed as a heresy).
5. Will Allah SWT the Most Gracious and Merciful intended those things in His grand scheme of things? That the staggering majority of His creation (humans) throughout history who believed in His deen will end up in hell? In such instances, we must ask: can He give guidance at all?
6. Don’t you think that your belief that only a small portion of Allah’s believers (such as your kind, Quranists) are guided by Allah SWT while the rest of Muslims are considered committing heresy for their belief in the Hadith resembled somewhat like the Jews’ self-righteous views regarding the gentiles?
Peace be upon you..
January 6, 2008 at 10:59 am
Jaka asked:
(1) What will happen to our predecessors who believed in the Hadith? Will all of them burn in hell for believing in the ‘fake’ hadiths?
My reply:
Are you telling God about your deen, when He knows everything in the heaven and the earth? God is fully aware of everything. So, nobody in this world is going to know who is going to heaven or hell, unless you are God!
Are you, Jaka?
Jaka asked:
(2) Which prominent Islamic figure in history advocated the Qur’an-only approach?
My reply:
In God’s deen there is no such thing as “Prominent Islamic figure”. These are figures that you make up, you and your forefathers. God never places any authority in them. Authority belongs only to God, and He has commanded that you shall not SERVE except Him. That is the perfect Deen, unfortunately most people do not know.
Jaka asked:
(3) Do you think Allah SWT will let the overwhelming majority of His followers astray and only lead a handful of them to the right path?
My reply:
You are ignoring the truth about following the “majority”. Listen and listen carefully what the Quran says about “majority”:
“The word of your Lord is COMPLETE, in TRUTH and JUSTICE. Nothing shall abrogate His WORDS. He is the hearer, and knower. AND if you FOLLOW the MAJORITY of people on earth, they will DIVERT you from thye path of God. They only follow CONJECTURE, and they only GUESS”.
(Sura 6 Verse 115-116)
“Indeed, your Lord knows best who has strayed from His path, and He knows best who are the guide one” (6:117)
As a matter of fact, if you wish to be among the “majority” of people you should denounce your religion and join Christianity because there are more Christians than the so-called Muslims like you.
Jaka made a very sensible comment on point no. 4 only if he looks his system of believe from outside the box. Actually it is not a trapped – BUT – a “Mental Bondage in the Name of God”.
According to the Quran all the prophets (Muhammad included) have enemies who invent and narrate to each other fancy words in order to deceive all the people. God tells us to disregard the invention of any external sources outside His revealed words to His messengers whose duty were only to delivered God’s message. Thus God gave us a clear commandment “Obey God and Obey the messenger” all over the Quran, because:
“We have appointed for every prophets enemies from among the human devils and jinn devils, who invent and narrate to each other fancy words in order to deceive. Had your Lord will, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their invention”. (6:112)
Mr Jaka, how sure are you the Hadith outside the Quran were NOT INVENTED by the enemies of the messenger? What kind of people will write about what your messenger did with his wife or how he fingered his wife in his bedroom?
Jaka asked:
(5) That the staggering majority of His creation (humans) throughout history who believed in His deen will end up in hell? In such instances, we must ask: can He give guidance at all?
My reply:
Indeed your Lord knows best who has strayed from His path, and He knows best who are the guided ones”. (6:118)
So Mr Jaka, if you are so sure of knowing that you are guided and you are going to “heaven” then you shouldn’t ask this question. I would suggest you hold dearly to your Islam based on the hadith outside the Quran. Just in case, and I am saying – just in case – you get into trouble in the hereafter perhaps you may want to look for your “Prominent Islamic Figures” for help, and this is what will happen:-
“Those who were followed will disown their followers; they will then suffer the retribution, and all help to them will be severed.” (2:166)
The people you call the Quranist do not follow anyone. They have no leaders or “Prominent Quranic Figures”. They read the Quran individually and they use the God given brain to think and decide for themselves. When they see a “stone house” they understand it as a “stone house”, and there is nothing “divine” or “Sacred” about any stone. A “stone” is a “stone” and they know it cannot represent the glory of God. I cannot make it more simpler than that.
Jaka asked:
(6) Don’t you think that your belief that only a small portion of Allah’s believers (such as your kind, Quranists) are guided by Allah SWT while the rest of Muslims are considered committing heresy for their belief in the Hadith…
My reply:
We don’t care what others want to believe and we never go around telling others that they have committed heresy or they have gone astray. We are not interested who is going to heaven or to hell – we simply don’t care! What we are doing, we are trying our best to live a life as an individual according to what has been sanctioned by God in the Quran, and by doing so, we hope He will forgive us of our transgression, have mercy on us and gives His blessing for serving Him through our “Deeds”.
Kathy
January 14, 2008 at 1:58 am
Kathy, I believe brother ibnalqayyim has raised a good point in his last post that you have yet to address. Perhaps it would be better if you reply to his post first as it is an interesting subject.
Secondly, I’m a firm believer in Allah’s grand scheme of things. I never believed that Allah SWT the Most Gracious and Merciful would only guide a handful of people like your kind (Qur’an-only believers) and let billions of His other believers (Muslims) went astray.
That would imply that IF indeed your teachings are in fact the true straight path, then paradise would be inhabited by only a minute portion of humanity: your brethren in faith which as you might recall only consisted of people from the last century (as your Qur’an-only approach is a new ‘invention’). IMHO, I just don’t think it is a part of His grand scheme of things to only guide a handful of people from the last century and let the others went astray.
Remember the 6th verse of Sura Al-Fatihah? “Show us the straight path”. Every person of faith who believed in Allah SWT say those prayers every single day. And the answer to the prayers of all of His believers is manifested in a small insignificant sect such as yours? That is the implication of your Qur’an-only schism’s claims that your way is the truth, you know. Don’t you think you’re just being self-righteous here?
You said, “We don’t care what others want to believe and we never go around telling others that they have committed heresy or they have gone astray. We are not interested who is going to heaven or to hell – we simply don’t care! What we are doing, we are trying our best to live a life as an individual…”
Think about it, fairly. Even a neutral reader can tell that several qualities exists in your tone: self-righteous, individualistic, permissive, ignorance towards others or the well being of Islam, I-only-care-about-my-own-salvation tendency. Tell me, are those qualities can be considered as Islamic qualities or Secularized Cristian/Western ones? Was that the characteristics of the early Muslims (with Muhammad as their leader) as they form the first Islamic community in Medina? You know Kathy, I had the impression that the values of the those people in Medina were: communality, religious, tolerant but conformed to certain standards of common piety, caring of each other’s as well as their own salvation, always thinking about the advancement of Islam and placed their own personal interests as second priority, etc. They always “enjoin on each other truth, and enjoin on each other patience.” Qur’an 103:3.
If you don’t believe me, just read the biography of Muhammad (pbuh) and the early followers written by Western scholars, because I realized that your western values will refrain you from opening the Hadith book or the Prophet’s biography written by Islamic scholars. Trust me, you’ll soon realize that the values you hold dear (especially regarding religion and spirituality) will resemble the Secularized Christian/Western values more than that of the original Muslims. One thing for sure: you kept preaching and regurgitating their values all the time, or at least you always seem to try to incorporate their values onto your own religion’s value (whatever it is the name of your schism). FYI, I don’t think you can call it Islam because the pre-established Islam doesn’t share your system of faith (which is evident from your Shahadah, and/or your stance regarding the Hadith).
I’ll try to address the other points from your previous post in the future, if time permits.
Peace be upon you…
January 14, 2008 at 1:06 pm
Jaka, if you think God blesses all the people who claim to be Muslims who share the same belief with you, then it is good for them and yourself. I hope you people will go to heaven. I am willing to inhabit hell as long as I am not in the company of the present day so-called Muslims.
Yes, you can say we are indivilistic because we believe in individualism in matters of God’s Deen. We were created individually and we will return to Him as individuals:
“Now, you come back to us as INDIVIDUALS, just the way we created you the first time, and you have left behind everything we had provided for you. We do not see any INTERCESSORS that you invented and IDOLISED. All TIES among you are severed, and the IDOLS you invented have disowed you” (Sura 6 Verse 94)
Take a hard look at the above verse and think carefully. Jaka, I know you are intelligent with a lot of common sense. Just try to understand what is INTERCESSORS and what is the IDOLS that humans idolise in their life.
If the above verse is not enough for you to believe that you are answerable as individuals then think about the following verses:
“And when the blow comes, that is the Day when the person will flee from his own brother, from his mother and father, from his wife and children. Each person will worry only about his own neck”. (Sura 80: 33-37)
I am sorry to be blunt with you. On the Day of Judgement – how can the History of Muhammad helps you in answering God about your commitments and your Deeds sanctioned by Him in His book? Do you mean to say when you celebrate the “Hijrah Day” of your “idol”, God will send you to heaven?
Kathy
January 20, 2008 at 3:28 pm
Kathy, I will try to address each of your previous points, bare with me because it’s quite lengthy. But first of all, I would like to ask you about your knowledge of the Qur’an. Do you consider yourself as an expert in the field of Qur’anic “Tafsir”? How long have you spent studying the subject of Tafsir, which is a branch of knowledge that specialize in the understanding of what each verses in the Qur’an meant in their proper context. Because if you try to interpret Qur’anic verses without the proper knowledge, you’ll end up with nothing but CONJECTURES and GUESSES, and most certainly interpretations which were placed waaay out of context.
You said, “As a matter of fact, if you wish to be among the “majority” of people you should denounce your religion and join Christianity because there are more Christians than the so-called Muslims like you.”
Why are you accusing me (which is a Muslim in a traditional sense) of simply following the majority? You’re contradicting yourself, because as you pointed out correctly if I were merely following the majority then I would have been a Christian. In that sense, Qur’anists’ most often used argument that traditional Muslims were just blindly following the majority regarding religion is not a valid interpretation, and clearly placed out of context.
Let’s look at Sura 6 Verse 115-116: “The word of your Lord is COMPLETE, in TRUTH and JUSTICE. Nothing shall abrogate His WORDS. He is the hearer, and knower. AND if you FOLLOW the MAJORITY of people on earth, they will DIVERT you from the path of God. They only follow CONJECTURE, and they only GUESS”.
Note that the wording were NOT “If you follow the majority of Muslims on earth, they will divert you from the path of God” but rather “If you follow the majority of people on earth, they will divert you from the path of God”. Indeed that’s true, because if we follow the majority of people on earth we would’ve been either a Christian or a non-practicing believer of a certain religion (believe me, there are many of them in all religions), and we would follow their values and/or culture.
My question is, after we establish who were these ‘majority’ after all, then why would the people who claim to follow Allah’s Qur’an, also follow the values of these ‘majority’? Isn’t it obvious that western-styled democracy, individualism, permissiveness, western-styled human rights and freedom, and other values that came from the Christian/Secularized West are the ‘majority’ value today? Why did you (Qur’anists) embrace these values which came from those ‘majority’ instead of rejecting them?
Now, how about if Sura 6 Verse 115-116 actually meant we should not follow the value of the majority of the people on earth in a given time? Because in practice, when we follow their values then we’re actually following the people themselves. Would you reject to follow the current Western ‘majority’ (in terms of influence) and their values? I guess not. Clearly that shows where your allegiance/faith stands.
You said, “According to the Quran all the prophets (Muhammad included) have enemies who invent and narrate to each other fancy words in order to deceive all the people.”
In prophet Muhammad’s (pbuh) case, the enemies were the Meccan Quraish and the Pagan Arabs, not his sahabahs and his followers who transmitted both the Qur’an and Hadith. Everything must be placed in their proper contexts.
“Mr Jaka, how sure are you the Hadith outside the Quran were NOT INVENTED by the enemies of the messenger?”
If there are bad apples in the crop, do we select and throw away the bad ones, or do we just get rid of the entire lot? If you argue that the Hadith is a new invention AFTER Muhammad’s (pbuh) death, then the Qur’an was also compiled into a book AFTER the death of Muhammad (pbuh). So by using your logic, the Qur’an was also “A book after Muhammad (pbuh)”. Read ibnalqayyim’s post above for the full detail.
You said, “Jaka, if you think God blesses all the people who claim to be Muslims who share the same belief with you, then it is good for them and yourself. I hope you people will go to heaven. I am willing to inhabit hell as long as I am not in the company of the present day so-called Muslims.”
Was that hatred in your tone, Kathy? Even extremists like Osama and co. committed their horrendous acts because they thought they will go to heaven by doing those things. And here comes a brave human who’s willing to go to hell for her so called faith. Even Iblis wouldn’t answer that he’ll happily inhabit hell (if he had a choice in the matter). I don’t know whether it was extreme enmity towards traditional Muslims, or extreme pride and self-righteousness that made you said those things.
Qur’an 5:54 “O ye who believe! Whoso of you becometh a renegade from his religion, (know that in his stead) Allah will bring a people whom He loveth and who love Him, humble toward believers, stern toward disbelievers, striving in the way of Allah, and fearing not the blame of any blamer. Such is the grace of Allah which He giveth unto whom He will. Allah is All-Embracing, All-Knowing.”
Are you being humble towards believers and stern towards disbelievers of Allah’s religion as the Qur’an had prescribed, Kathy?
Qur’an 5:82 “Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans…”
Why do you hold so much enmity towards fellow believers? Do you think that it will please Allah SWT by doing so?
Qur’an 16:23 “Undoubtedly Allah doth know what they conceal, and what they reveal: verily He loveth not the arrogant”.
You said, “Yes, you can say we are individualistic because we believe in individualism in matters of God’s Deen. We were created individually and we will return to Him as individuals.”
Are you sure Allah SWT wanted us to live individualistic lives and practice individualism in matters of Deen? Then read these verses and you might wonder that perhaps you have been reading the wrong parts of the Qur’an which made you come to the wrong conclusion, or you’ve been interpreting the verses incorrectly:
Qur’an 3:43 “…Prostrate thyself, and bow down (in prayer) with those who bow down.”
Qur’an 3:110 “Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah…”
To me, these verses suggested a communal lifestyle for Muslims instead of an individualistic one. Sura 6 verse 94 and sura 80 verse 33-37 which you quoted suggested that we will return to Allah SWT as individuals in the afterlife, it didn’t suggest that we must live an individual lifestyle and practice individualism in the matters of Deen. Again, the surahs and verses must be placed in their proper contexts.
Qur’an 16:43 “And before thee also the apostles We sent were but men, to whom We granted inspiration: if ye realise this not, ask of those who possess the Message.”
If Allah SWT ordered Muhammad (pbuh) to ask people who have more knowledge in the matters of Deen when he’s in doubt, then shouldn’t we follow the same pattern? Obviously your statement doesn’t come from the Qur’an : “The people you call the Quranist do not follow anyone. They have no leaders or “Prominent Quranic Figures”. They read the Quran individually and they use the God given brain to think and decide for themselves.”
Why? Because whenever we’re in doubt about something in the matter of religion, Allah SWT ordered Muhammad (pbuh) to ask others who posses more knowledge, hence we must do the same. Trial and error assumptive approach or “follow CONJUECTURES, and only use GUESSES” in understanding and interpreting the verses of the Qur’an is not what Allah SWT had prescribed for us.
I ask you once more, do you (and the rest of your Qur’anist brethren) have sufficient individual knowledge about Allah’s SWT Deen and the subject of Tafsir that made it unnecessary for you people to ask other people who had more knowledge in the matter of religion? Your often out of context quotes of the Qur’an suggests that you don’t posses such knowledge.
You said, “I am sorry to be blunt with you. On the Day of Judgement – how can the History of Muhammad helps you in answering God about your commitments and your Deeds sanctioned by Him in His book?”
How about by following Muhammad’s (pbuh) example, because as a prophet whom Allah SWT had entrusted to reveal the Qur’an for humanity then his words and actions couldn’t have been astray from the teachings of the Qur’an, he would’ve been a hypocrite otherwise. If anyone could apply Qur’anic teachings to the fullest extent in their daily life, then Muhammad (pbuh) is naturally the best example.
And the other benefit is, that we may learn about the characteristics of a true Muslim that Allah SWT had prescribed in the Qur’an. Muhammad (pbuh) and his sahabahs have undoubtedly best characterize what a Muslim should be.
Now take a hard and long look at yourself, are your character similar to that of the Prophet (pbuh) and the sahabahs, or resembles the current Christian/Secularized West ‘majority’?
Lastly, here’s a verse regarding creating new schisms and divisions within Islam like what you (Quranists) had done. You have to admit that your approach regarding the Deen is a new and unprecedented one, isn’t it?
Qur’an 42:13 “The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah – the which We have sent by inspiration to thee – and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: Namely, that ye should remain steadfast in religion, and make no divisions therein…”
January 29, 2008 at 11:05 pm
peace be on you KATHY….IM totallY impressed with ur discussion and agree with u 100%.i feel sorry for other fellow brethren who argue with u foolishly considering themselves to be on true religion which they are not.SATAN HAS MADE THEIR DEEDS ALLURING IN THEIR own EYES.!
I WOULD LIKE THEM TO EXPLAIN ME THE FOLLOWING VERSE OF HOLY QURAN…3:139
“SO LOSE NOT HEART NOR FALL INTO DESPAIR YOU LL BE THE HIGHEST AND BEST IF YOU ARE TRUE IN FAITH.”
MY DEAR BROTHER JAKA AND IBN AL QAYYIM can u pls make us understand where are the muslims highest and best in the whole world in last 200 years..if u guys are true in faith.this is the time to ponder very seriously brothers.leave being highest and best,muslims are being treated as shit all across the world.muslim women are being treated as just not slaves but sluts and whores.the iraq destruction is not so far.women have just not been raped by men but even by dogs and pigs.no help ever came to them.can u explain of why.?if ur true muslims.! MUSLIM WOMEN ARE BEING ENSLAVED IN ISRAEL AND TREATED AS THEIR PROPERTY FOR MORE THE 60 YEARS..NO HELPS COMING WHY.? ALLAH PROMISES HIS HELP AGAINST THE DISBELIEVERS TO MUSLIMS.? WHERE IS IT..DONT U ALL UNDERSTAND THAT WE ARE TERRIBLY WRONG SOMEWHERE..? THAT EVEN ALLAH ST NOT RESPONDING..THEN READ QURAN CAREFULLY..
3:137 ” THERE HAVE BEEN EXAMPLES THAT HAVE PASSED AWAY BEFORE YOU..TRAVEL THROUGH THE EARTH AND SEE WHAT WAS THE END OF THOSE WHO REJECTED TRUTH.!!
3:138 ” HEAR IS A PLAIN INSTRUCTIO TO MEN A GUIDANCE AND INSTRUCTION TO THOSE WHO FEAR ALLAH.”
AND MY DEAR BROTHER AS U SAID ABOVE TAFSEER S AND SO CALLED HADITH…LET ME MAKE IT CLEAR THAT THEY HAVE GOT NOTHING TO DO WITH ISLAM AND QURAN..COS ALLAH CLEARLY ASKS US TO PONDER ON “HIS” VERSES NOT ON TAFSEERS..”47:24 DO THEY NOT THEN EARNESTLY SEEK TO UNDERSTAND THE QURAN OR IS THAT THERE ARE LOCKS UPON THEIR HEARTS.?”
i would love to talk to people all across regarding the above discussion..if u dont find me again on the blog pls take some time to reply on my mail.asifqureshi06@yahoomail.com.
would really appreciate if replied back.
thanks a million.cheers.
ASIF.
January 30, 2008 at 9:30 am
Here’s an easy answer for you, Asif: If Indeed the Tauhid or Deen of the current mainstream Islam is somehow wrong or flawed, then don’t you think that those bad things you mentioned would have befall us ever since the beginning of Islam? Why must the decline only started in the last 200 years, as you put it? Why not earlier than that (say, since 700 AD or so), if indeed the problem was our Tauhid or Deen?
You have to remember that the traditional Muslims had always believed in both the Qur’an and Hadith ever since the days of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and his Sahabahs. Saying that the people in the days of Muhammad (pbuh) and the Sahabahs didn’t believe in the Hadith is just preposterous and plain ignorant. If you just think about it more thoroughly, there’s no logic whatsoever in that statement. So people back then believed in the words of Muhammad (pbuh) when he uttered Qur’anic verses but not his other words (words outside the Qu’ran)??? A person who believed in that statement is either dumb, or misguided.
Have you ever thought that perhaps Islam’s decline began because Muslims started to be afflicted by “wahn”: the fear of death and overt fondness of worldly matters? Or because we began embracing the ways of our enemies (i.e. western style culture, morality and political systems)? Or because we’re not united, and rapidly began to create divisions within our religion? Your schism (Qur’an only ‘religion’) is not helping to strengthen the unity of the Ummah for that matter, BTW.
QURAN…3:139 “SO LOSE NOT HEART NOR FALL INTO DESPAIR YOU LL BE THE HIGHEST AND BEST IF YOU ARE TRUE IN FAITH.”
If you consider that the meaning of the words “highest and best” only applies to worldly matters than perhaps you were right. But you must remember this verse:
Qur’an 6:32 “What is the life of this world but play and amusement? But best is the home in the hereafter, for those who are righteous. Will ye not then understand?”
The following verse clearly states that we must not use worldly troubles or successes as a standard of Allah’s SWT favor upon us, because they were merely a form of trial. Note the words “best is the home in the hereafter”.
Qur’an 39:49 “Now, when trouble touches man, he cries to Us: But when We bestow a favour upon him as from Ourselves, he says, “This has been given to me because of a certain knowledge (I have)!” Nay, but this is but a trial, but most of them understand not!”
And the next verse will further clarify that the term “highest and best” is not necessarily based upon worldly standards, we must also consider the spiritual meaning and the context of the hereafter (afterlife).
Qur’an 2:212 “The life of this world is alluring to those who reject faith, and they scoff at those who believe. But the righteous will be above them on the Day of Resurrection; for Allah bestows His abundance without measure on whom He will.”
Now it’s clear that we mustn’t use worldly standards to judge a person’s (or a group of people’s) position in the view of Allah SWT, there are also spiritual aspects to consider. I believe that what happened to Muslims today is a form of trial from Allah SWT, and perhaps a punishment for our disunity and for embracing the values of our enemies instead of what Allah SWT had prescribed for us in the Qur’an and Hadith. Creating a new schism (like yours) is pointless, we got bigger issues to worry about.
Now let’s address the other verses that you quoted. The problem with you people (Qu’ranists) was that you always seem to have a knack in placing Qur’anic verses out of context.
3:137 ” THERE HAVE BEEN EXAMPLES THAT HAVE PASSED AWAY BEFORE YOU..TRAVEL THROUGH THE EARTH AND SEE WHAT WAS THE END OF THOSE WHO REJECTED TRUTH.!!
I thought the verse was referring to the people of old who had been destroyed because of their disbelieve in Allah SWT (pagans), NOT to believing Muslims after Muhammad (pbuh). I guess you just liked to point fingers and condemn others who doesn’t share your belief system, and then you simply call them as the people who rejected “the truth”.
”47:24 DO THEY NOT THEN EARNESTLY SEEK TO UNDERSTAND THE QURAN OR IS THAT THERE ARE LOCKS UPON THEIR HEARTS.?”
As Tafseer is the branch of knowledge that specialize in the understanding of what each verses in the Qur’an meant in their proper context, then studying it would likely result in a better understanding of the Qur’an, wasn’t that what you wanted (and what verse 47:24 had prescribed)? But instead you suggested that Muslims should only ponder (whatever that means) the Qur’an without additional knowledge whatsoever, wouldn’t that result in conjectures and guesses about what the verses actually meant, or indeed out of context interpretations? If every Muslims in this planet used your suggested method then there would be millions of interpretations regarding a single verse, let alone the entire Al-Qur’an. Or would you then suggest that the Holy Ghost would guide those Muslims to find the truth in their ‘interpretating adventures’?
Have you ever considered that your approach in trying to understand your Holy Book starkly resembles the Christians’? Why should we follow the method of the misguided?
P.S. If you open the Qur’an and read the verses preceding Qur’an 47:24, you’ll learn the the people who had “locks upon their hearts” were the Pagan Meccans, because the verse was clearly referring to them. Now it became obvious that you only liked to “ponder” the Qur’an randomly, and that you liked to pick and choose verses and translate them according to your whims to make your point, or that you lack coherence and any kind of order when reading the Qur’an. Try reading the Qur’an orderly from start to finish (don’t jump around the verses) and without prejudice towards other Muslims, hopefully you’ll be able to have a better understanding of the Qur’an.
May Allah SWT guide us all..
February 11, 2008 at 10:25 am
As i came to know about ur doubts. I have very simple answer . In India a well known scholar named Abul Hasan Chekannur were lived and challenged so many people to prove 5 times and he claimed 3 times in quran
He got proof with him from purely from Quran and his followers still doing the same procedure , All from quran and not from hadith
Allah explaining Salah at war when prophet and his team went to war. Just read if dont know arabic , consult an arabic professor
If failed to find , send e-mail to anzariz@rediffmail.com
March 25, 2008 at 12:08 am
Assalaamualaikum,
just find this site by coincidence.
this is an interesting discussion. again to all of you who already give comments and share your personal thought, please do not trapped into divide each other.
i suggest if you want to know more about the origins of Shalat, you justtake a look inside your own heart. And you’ll find it the answer right there.
i have a doubt about it my self.. trying to find peace of mind, trying to find something that could motivate myself when i’m on sadness.
it’s true.. you’ll find it there.. just be honest with yourself.
i believe you all have already read ESQ book (or other chicken soup kinda- related to Shalat / Moslem books) , i also think that it explains clearly why Shalat? whay 5 times? why facing Kiblat? although the explanation itself is more useful for they who look to fill the empty space in their soul, i’m not trying to sell the ESQ ideas, but if you could find an answer from other kinda book/writings. the answer is still in your heart. those books only help you more easier to look for the answer. just open your heart to those writings, and you’ll find it there.
if anybody else have find the answer, why won’t you learn from them?
you don’t have to keep asking about what you already knew from other people. Allah will be at your side in everyway, He’ll help you find the answer by giving directions that you might not even realized.
again, just open your / our heart, don’t have to find the answer by blaming each other opinion. The most right opinion will survive eternally because it’s guarded by Allah Himself.
March 27, 2008 at 3:37 pm
Salaam,
I’ve been studying the Quran (and I think its a never ending process for me) for 16 years. The concept of “praying” is NOT in the Quran, and the Arabic “sala” is certainly not “praying”.
I’m not going into details of this “pray” thingy, and I simply want to share a thought provoking (re-)definition of “praying” by a friend of mine:
One night he dreamed of God (No visual of Him, just a voice), and He told him to stop saying and mumbling prayers, repeating the same thing every time, and everyday.
Then God said, “It’s JUNK MAIL and its annoying!”
May 19, 2008 at 5:47 pm
So many words. So many opinions.
So I’ll add mine.
5 x Salat per day is a gift from Allah to humanity. People can argue that its an obligation.
But that misses the point in my humble opinion (IMHO).
The gift means that you have the opportunity to change what you are thinking about (e.g. work, home, marcet) and think about Allah and what he has given. It is for your benefit, not His.
Does He need your prayers?
No
Is it good for you to interrupt your routines, stresses, activities and think of Him 5 times a day and thank Him for your blessings?
Yes
IMHO, the obligation part is that Allah wants you to care for yourself, by performing Salat 5 timesa day at least.
So, IMHO, that is really a gift to humanity.
Re which way facing when praying; Unles you are trying to pray on the rotating part of a table in a chinese restaurant, you need to face SOME direction, dont you? The symbolic house of God is as good a direction as any. Note that when travelling, the direction your airplane (or camel) is facing is of no importance. Suspect then that that puts the problem re direction is some sort of perspective.
K.
August 6, 2008 at 8:59 pm
Check this link and even post your qestions here
http://www.irf.net/irf/faqonislam/middle/introduction.php3
ask with right people at right time.
September 13, 2008 at 2:53 pm
ummm…person who wrote this post….u said that Abraham would not have prayed the same way we did because then there was no Mohammad….um hello?people didnt pray that way before….obviously Abraham prayed a different way….Our praying is different than other religions’ prayers.even the ones we believe are from God
November 15, 2008 at 4:29 am
I agree with “R”. In all of the previous books before Quran, there were verses that a religion is coming in the future (Islam) which will be final and a book which will have full life path (Quran). Now prophets before Mohammad (SWW) did not have guidance of Quran and only followed or prayed what they were told by Allah directly. That doesnt mean that Muslims have to do the same (whatever they think is right), because they do not have any direct conversation with Allah. Abraham prayed on his own way, and you must pray the way Quran tells you, because any muslim born after Mohammad (SWW) is not permitted to follow any other way, except Quran.
Now Parvita, your summary tells us that you dont want to follow “anything else” other than Quran. I also agree with you, because Allah said Quran is the only book to follow. But dont take it just word-wise. For example, if you start counting all the chemicals, bonds and their properties in Chemistry and functions, I dont think you will be done learning all about the “Chemistry” before your life ends. You must take information from elsewhere too, which are well established. Yes, dont take from everywhere, but take it from scholars and knowledgeable persons.
January 17, 2009 at 12:13 pm
Finally, after hoping around looking for the most ideal Islamic’s website I stumbled upon this blog, and it is the best so far:
http://mentalbondageinthenameofgod.wordpress.com/
I am glad that now I am free from the shackles of the Ulemas. This blog exposes the evil teachings by my ustaz and religious teachers.
In Christianity followers are made to worship idols carved in many forms and shapes made of wood, bronze, copper, metal and sometimes with gold in maniature sizes so that their followers can display or carry it wherever they go to feel the sacredness. To do that they only need to spend a few dollars for these idols and its available in many shops.
But the Arabs are smarter that the vatican – they carved a big idol with their hands that looks like a house and then announced to the world the rock structure is the most sacred house on earth. It is forbidden haram for anyone to make or to possess a maniature copy of this house from whatever materials they make. Muslims world over who want to feel the sacredness of what they built must take a trip to their land – and make sure with plenty of money.
It costs the Christians only a few dollors to adore and kiss their idols, but it will cost Muslims a few Thousands Dollars to kiss a stone which cannot harm or benefit them.
February 19, 2009 at 12:28 pm
Brother Gunumaro , First of all , there is a BIG difference between worshiping idols and PRAYING facing towards the House of Allah. You are confused between the two. But donot worry my brother, as this is one of the biggest and the most common misconceptions about Islam. Kabah, (the house of Allah) was first built by Our Prophet , the Prophet of the Jews And the Prophet of the Christians known to us all as Abraham or Ibrahim and his Son Ismael aka Ishmael. It was built by them so that People Could pray towards a particular direction as they were commanded by Allah himself. Allah never asked or said to Worship the Kabaah, but only to face towards it while performing the prayers. The whole World faces towards it while praying , now isnt that just beautiful? Think about it my brother. As far as the topic goes, Sisters and Brothers…Being a muslim first most important principle to follow is to beleive in Oneness of God and his Messenger Muhammad pbuh and all the Prophets pbut who came before the last Messenger and delivered the one true messege which was to have faith in One god (Allah) only. Prophet Muhammad pbuh was delievered the final messege in the shape of the book known to us all as Quran. Because he (the prophet) was chosen as a universal Example he had to literally practice the Quran and show the people how it should be followed since Quran holds many things which are beyond our simple understanding of the world. Since the prophets were mentally blessed and perfect for this Job, there cudnt be anyone else who wud have been fit for this specific task. That is the whole concept about the Prophets. they are set as examples for us humans to follow. When u go to a school or a university , why need a teacher? when u have the books? Even a 10 year old would understand the logic behind it. Now , Muhammad saw was given the book with all the laws for us to follow but He wud then practise every verse revealed to him and demonstrate it the right way so we can follow it perfectly without any error(s). These practices were known to us as Sunnats of the Prophet. THe doings of our beloved Prophet. keep it simple. there is nothing more to understand here. Then came the sweet words of our prophet he spoke to the public to explain them Further more into depth whenever they wud fail to comprehend a verse or a surah. These explanations became known as the Prophets Hadith(s). So basically , if the prophet told (hadith) us to Pray five times and showed us how to perform (sunnat) he was only practising the Quran and nothing more. The Quran is complete, no doubt about it. But there are areas in the Quran itself which are so difficult for us Ordinary humans to understand or comprehend we look at the teacher ( the Prophet ) and do what he did and had said about it. Salat is a pillar of Islam, one of the strongest one and if one fails to follow it fails to follow Muhammad fails to Follow the Quran fails to Follow Allah since Quran is nothing but the words of Allah. keep it simple you guys. Dont just critisize Islam or the Prophet or the Quran. Dont put yourself in a difficult position, Dont do that. Just stick to the Basics which is to follow the Book and the Prophet and when u follow the Prophet u have no choice but to follow everything he had said and done during his lifetime. If anyone still have doubt(s) regarding it , please seek guidence from a knowledgeable person instead of just commenting like that online. Struggle if you have to. Struggle to find the right answers if you are lost or have doubts.
La ilaha illallah Muhammad Rasoolallah ! 
peace out.
February 22, 2009 at 12:36 am
Talal, I heard this kind of grandmother story like yours too often but they are nothing but guessing works and conjectures – and conjectures cannot substitute the truth. The Quran says Ibrahim and Ismail were never in Mecca. So, tell me, who is right – your grandmother story or the Quran?
If you are too busy to study the Quran in detail please read the research work done by others – or spend sometime to read:-
http://mentalbondageinthenameofgod.wordpress.com/2009/01/07/abraham-and-ishmael-were-never-in-mecca/
and here:-
http://mentalbondageinthenameofgod.wordpress.com/2009/01/04/fairy-tales-to-strengthen-the-conspiracies/
I don’t follow Muhammad as described by the hadith writers or the knowledgeable people who promote such teachings – because they will abandon their followers on the day of judgement:-
“Those who are followed will abandon their followers, they will suffer the retribution, and all help to them will be severed” (Quran 2:166)
Since you are following you religious experts without using your own mental faculties, I wish you and your religious experts all the best and good luck in the hereafter. I hope the following will not happen:-
“If you could envision the wicked when they face their Lord, they will BLAME EACH OTHER. Thus the FOLLOWERS will say to their LEADERS, “If it were not for you, we would have believed!” Then the LEADERS will say to their FOLLOWERS, “It is not us who diverted you from the guidance when it came to you, it is you who were guilty!”.
“They will also say, Had we hearkened and use our common sense, we would not have deserved hell”.
They will say, Our Lord, we obeyed our masters and elders, and they have misguided us. Our Lord, give them double the punishment, and curse them a mighty curse.”
The above verses are reminders from the Quran – and you cannot find them in the hadith books! I did not give the sura and verse reference numbers on purpose because you acknowledged the Quran is the words of God and as a Muslim you should be familiar with it. And please don’t tell us another grandmother story like – ‘the Quran is difficult to understand’. Is it difficult tu understand what I have just quoted above?
If you answer is yes, please continue to consult your masters and elders.
February 25, 2009 at 12:57 pm
“Those who are followed will abandon their followers, they will suffer the retribution, and all help to them will be severed” (Quran 2:166)
You are confused my brother. When the Quran talks about the Followers , it is not talking about the people who had written hadith(s) but those who have misguided people and have made their own sects for them (the people) to follow. The Quran talks about different Sects here made by People themselves not the Prophet. The Prophet perfected the Religion and wanted us the followers of Prophet Muhammad pbuh to Follow him (The last Prophet) so we can Taste Paradise in the hereafter. No one can deny the Prophet or his doings and sayings. Brother you telling me as if you are 101% Sure yourself about what you say.
No , The Quran tells us to follow the Prophet and beleive in the Prophets who came before him for the very same purpose but targeted at a particular race, not the whole World. I donot know what you understand and know. I am not following any Man! or any one who came after the Prophet pbuh. I am a Muslim and i will beleive in what my Prophet did and said …i will believe what my Quran tells me to beleive. If i start following or doing what people did after the death of our beleoved Prophet means i am not following the Prophet. The Quran was revealed to the holy Prophet during the 23 years of his preaching. It was only Compiled later in a Book Form. Brother , Any sane person would understand this. the kalimah reads ” La ialaha ilallah Muhammad Rasool allah ” there is no God but Allah and Muhammad is the messenger of Allah”. My job and my brothers and sisters Job is to Follow the kalimah and follow the Prophet. You did not understand the logic behind my Grandma story my brother. Nobody is asking you to follow the Scholars. Nobody ever will ask you to follow them. 87% OF the mulsim Population facing the Kabah and praying 5 times daily cannot be wrong can they? or are you saying 86% (Sunni Muslims) and 12% (Shia Muslims) will go to hell for not following Muhammad but someone or something else? lol , give me a break here cuz the resy 2% population which remains are sects who claim to be muslims. Are you telling me the Majority of Muslim shia and Sunni both are wrong becuase they Pray Five times Daily as Our prophet told us to? you are denying Islam and the Prophet if you keep talking and thinking the way you are thinking. If you keep denying the any of the main 5 pillars of Islam on which it stands, you my brother are denying Muhammad pbuh , denying God.
[2:125] We have rendered the shrine (the Ka`aba) a focal point for the people, and a safe sanctuary. You may use Abraham’s shrine as a prayer house. We commissioned Abraham and Ismail: “You shall purify My house for those who visit, those who live there, and those who bow and prostrate.
nobody here consults masters or elders brother. I have been a student of Religion for almost 8 years now. I am a proud Muslim and i will FOllow my prophet and his teachings and nothing else besides that. Period. hope you understand and learn something from my comment but if not , all i can do is pray for you cuz i beleive you are seriously confused and ignorant when it comes to Islam. God help you. oh , and no offense
you are just a brother …who is lost thats all …they all are, but things get fine in the end. No worries. love you all !
February 26, 2009 at 4:44 am
The Holy Book (Quran) is the final scripture from God to us Muslims and others who are not Muslims. It was meant to be delivered as a universal Messege, to the whole Mankind and other beings created by God such as Jins etc. Prophet Ibrahim and Ismael , Daud , Musa and Isa …they all came and delivered the same messege God delivered to Muhammad pbuh but there Messege was meant for a particular tribe or nation. Not everyone in the world. We all know the story of Moses…No matter how hard he tried to convince his people about oneness of God they always went off track in the end. People denied Jesus (Isa) as a Prophet/Messenger. It is Muhammad pbuh who established Islam perfectly since the Quran itself tells us that Now the religion Islam has been perfected and is ready for everyone to follow. There will come No other Book no Other prophet or Scripture as he our prophet was the last in the line of Prophets/Messengers. Now , during his last sermon he clearly said out loud to Follow the 5 pillars of Islam if you want to be a true Muslim.The Quran clearly mentions the times of Prayer.
The Contact Prayers are food for the soul. The prayers are for our own benefit, and not for God. God is in no need of our praise. In addition, by performing the five daily prayers, it allows us to be more conscious of God in our lives.
The required times for Contact prayers are:
Dawn: This is defined when the white thread of light becomes distinguishable from the dark thread of night (2:187) before sunrise. The dawn prayer is mentioned in the Quran twice (11:114, 24:58). The Quran mentions the recitation of the Holy Quran at dawn in 17:78. This prayer consists of two units.
Noon: This is defined as when the sun declines from its highest point at noon as it moves towards sunset (17:78). This prayer consists of four units.
Afternoon: This is in the middle of the afternoon, about 3-4 hours after the noon prayer (2:238). This prayer consists of four units.
Sunset/Evening: This prayer is just after sunset (11:114). This prayer consists of three units.
Night: This prayer should be performed about two hours after the sunset prayer (11:114, 24:58). This prayer consists of four units.
Now if one says that he doesnt still get it or understand where the Quran talks about offering prayers 5 times a day. He needs to study the Quran again and again if he has to until the time comes when he sees the Light. God wants us to Stuggle if we have to in order to gain Knowledge about something we donot understand. Quran is not an easy Book to understand as it is written in Form of Poetry. one Word may have several Meanings. But the whole point is , Muhammad pbuh was there to guide us since he was chosen to deliver us the messege in the simplest way possible. He did that , he passed away leaving behind the book.
I hope the info helps. assalam-alaykum.
February 26, 2009 at 8:10 am
@Talal: thank you for sharing your wisdom. Could you point out why Subuh is 2 rakaat, Dzuhur is 4 rakaat and so on? Could you also point out how the rasuls perform their prayers as written in the Qur’an, or how it should be performed?
I still think the basic message is that pray everytime. Not only five times. Why FIVE? Why not TEN? Why need to be fixed?
March 6, 2009 at 4:06 am
How do we determine what the Prophet (sAas) has ordered, in order to obey it?
How do we find out what he judged in disputes so that we can abide by it?
How do we know what he has decided on matters, so that we can submit to it?
How do we discover what he has given, so that we can take it, or what he has prohibited, so we can abstain from it?
see these questions i just mentioned above can only be answered by sunnas of the prophet Muhammad pbuh. What he practised during his life what he said during his life. The Quran clearly mentions;
.Wa maa atakum ar-Rasul fa khudhuhu wa maa nahakhum anhu fa intahu. Wa ittaquAllah innAllaha Shadid al-Iqab.
…And what the Messenger gives you, so take it, and what he prohibits you, so refrain from it. And be in awe of Allah. Surely Allah is Stern of Punishment.
another verse where the Quran clearly says;
Bi al-bayyinat wa az-Zubur wa anzalna ilayka adh-Dhikra li-tubayyina li an-nas maa nuzzila ilayhim wa la’allahum yatafakkarun.
By clear proofs and scriptures, and We have sent down on you (O Prophet) the Reminder, that you can explain to humankind what is sent down for them and in order that they may reflect.
THE quran was not an easy Book to understand sister and brothers. There was a need of a Messenger a rasool to practise it perfectly so we can Follow the Rasool the last prophet if we want to follow the Quran properly. As there was no way we could have followed or interpreted the Quran as it was supposed to without the Holy Prophet pbuh.
The Quran mentions the prayers , the timings if one reads carefully but the prophet Muhammad later showed us HOW to perform the ablution
as mentioned in the Holy Book and likewise how to perform the Prayers.
There are several hadith(s) sister not ordinary but Authentic* hadith(s) coming to us from the chain of Prophet muhammad himself which clearly say how and when to perform the Prayers as the Prophet did so. The companions of our prophet Muhamamd cudnt be lying now wud they? there has to be a genuine reason for the Majority of Muslims to pray five times a day. I pointed out this earlier as well.
If you deny the validity of the Sunna then you may end up disobeying what the Prophet (sAas) has commanded, turning away from what he has judged, rejecting what he has decided, ignoring what he has given, and doing what he has prohibited.
And if you do these acts of disobedience, turning-away, rejecting, ignoring, and doing-the-prohibited then YOU HAVE DISOBEYED ALLAH. It’s that simple. It is incumbent upon every Muslim to obey both the Quran and the Sunna. Read the verses I have cited for yourself. What do you think they mean?
The Mistake of Those Who Confuse the Sunna and the Hadiths
Very often, those who proclaim that they follow the Quran only, ignore the Sunna and concentrate on the hadiths. They assume that if they can refute or disprove the hadiths, they have proved their own position.
Their mistake is to assume that the Sunna and the hadiths are the same thing. This is incorrect. No scholar of Islam has ever claimed that the sources of Shari’a are “the Quran and the hadiths”. Rather, the correct statement is that the sources of Shari’a are the Quran and the SUNNA.
The hadiths are a textual source for determining what the Sunna is. But they are not by themselves the Sunna.
The scholars of Islam have developed a sophisticated methodology for collecting the hadiths and for determining from them what the Sunna is.
Collecting the hadiths: Briefly, the great collectors of hadiths such as Imam Bukhari and Imam Muslim followed a methodology that they collected everything that there was on a subject, and they marked down how authentic it was. Rather than discarding the material they felt was not wholly authentic, so that it became lost to history, they included it. This means that other scholars can examine the evidence for themselves, and make their own determination of what is authentic.
Sister there are numerous things the Quran says but are followed by our ignorant muslim brothers and sisters incorrectly with their own interpretations. it is then only when we bring in the hadith(s) to support what the Quran is actually meaning here.
Here you Go sister:
http://www.muhajabah.com/sunna-yes.htm This is a site made for the brothers and sisters who seek knowledge regarding the sunnat(S) and hadiths and the Quran and their connection. PLease refer to it.
Asalam alaykum
hope it helps.
April 12, 2009 at 2:08 pm
There is no way to pray specifiacally mentioned in the Koran, Gospel or Torah. Its important to be consistent and to do it properly. I pray twice a day as thats how I believe the Koran says it. But in reality there is other ways. Salaat is a connection, a link, a hotline if you like between you and God.
The hadith Sunnah was an innovation invented by Imam Al Shafi in his risala work. You can read how he argues for another source of Islam with a crowd who never heard of hadiths as Sunnah before. It was about 160 years after Muhammad. You can google “The Risala” by Imam Al Shafi and read it yourself.
You can aslo read the works of Jospeh Schacht and Ignaz Goldziher to get the orientalist point of view. There are many hadith article in the net that deals with Orientalist works.
April 27, 2009 at 6:59 am
Salam,
I think it is very wise of you to question what you are doing. It means that you are not doing it out of blind faith. I wish I could answer your question as I don’t know the answer yet, so I am still praying 5 times for the meantime. I recommend that you join http://www.free-minds.org as you will find many open minded muslims studying the Quran. No conclusion has been found yet about the number of prayers. Some say 3, some say 5, some say 2 is obligatory plus an optional one, using only the Quran as the source. But God willing it will help you make your mind up.
June 15, 2009 at 4:23 pm
What is Faith? It is blind. None has ever seen GOD, Allah or Prophets, Angels, Hell, Haven etc BUT all religious people beleive in these. WHY? because its bling faith. If this is the case Then How Quran is different? Quran provides explanations (revealved about 1400 years ago). All the explanations are scientific and NOT a siongle is against the modren Science. So if 80% of a book that we can prove on modren science) and 20% that we cant not because it cannot be proven but because our scientific knowlege is limited, hence we cannot deny remender 20%). Science still cannot understand a) human brain, genes, earth motion, planets, universe, blackholes etc but we do know that these exist and accept the every day new research. For example Darwen Theory has been rejected by 90% of scientists beleiving in formation of this universe. But those who cannot do research stick with the THEORY (remember its just a theory not FACT, and theory is based on assumptions that can or cannot be proven). I invite you people to do research and avoid spreading disease in relegous people’s mind.
It is YOU who can DISCOVER the ANSWER and EXPALIN to others. Dont ASK, just EXPLORE.
Dr Muhammad Jamro (www.sindh2uk.co.uk)
June 15, 2009 at 4:08 pm
http://www.searchtruth.com, I use this website for my basic research. Islam is not about Quran (final Testament) only, It is in continuation from Torah (old testament) and Bible (new testament). All the teachings, Obligations are very well structured and correctly described. Many rituals, funadmentals, ways of prayers are from old holybooks (i.e. Hujj, Fast, circumcisim, Zakat, Charity, etc). Point to understand is that Muhammad did not invernt a new religion, he purified the exisiting religion and did not produced any new faith or reformed but refined the altered faith. Prayer is based not based on round the clock but situations and periods of the day and night.
Quran clearly invites everyone ‘to research’ and ‘reject false’ and ‘do not worship anyone other than Allah, The GOD’. I invite you to research on your Questions for any issue in Quran, Hadith, Islam. (Don’t follow what Muslims say and do, Read, analyse and seek assistance from Quran). If you cannot find it in Quran, it means you are not useing correct keywords, You can search in English). Quran DOES provide all the Answers only if you BELEIVE in it. Read intial 10 verses from Second Chapter of Quran as it is for all BELEIVERS and Definition of Beleivers. None other than Beleivers will seek right answer, its the clear guideline.
Search your keywords in Quran and Hadiths, using English Transtlation
Quran, Hadiths and much more: Download for mobiles.
http://www.searchtruth.com, Jazakumllah khair, Best of Luck,
Dr. Muhammad Yousif Jamro
University of Hertfordshire, United Kingdom.
PhD in Telecom, student of Quran for more than 10 years. I was one of your type and now stoped asking and arguing, search myself and get reply from Quran myself.
June 15, 2009 at 4:37 pm
qualifies the word “Salaat” by three different temporal words: (1) Salaat-al Fajr (Morning Prayer), (2) Salaat-al Esha (Evening Prayer), (3) Salaat-al Wusta (Middle/Noon Prayer). The Morning Prayer (24:58) and Evening Prayer (24:58) should be observed at both ends of the day, that is, early part of the night (11:114) and the Middle Prayer (2:238).
HOW MANY PRAYERS A DAY?
Only three Contact Prayers are mentioned by name in the Quran. In other words, the word “salaat” is qualified with descriptive words in three instances. These are:
1. Salaat-al Fajr-DAWN PRAYER (24:58; 11:114).
2. Salaat-al Esha-EVENING PRAYER (24:58; 17:78; 11:114)
3. Salaat-al Wusta- MIDDLE PRAYER (2:238; 17:78)
All of the verses that define the times of the prayers are attributable to one of these three prayers. Now let’s see the related verses:
DAWN & EVENING PRAYERS by their names:
“. . . This is be to be done in three instances: before the DAWN PRAYER, at noon when you change your clothes to rest, and after the EVENING PRAYER. . .” (24:58).
For other usage of the word “esha” (evening) see: 12:16; 79:46
The times of DAWN & EVENING PRAYERS defined:
“You shall observe the contact prayers at both ends of the daylight, that is, during the adjacent hours of the night. . . ” (11:114)
Traditional translators and commentators consider the last clause “zulfan minal layl” of this verse as a seperate prayer indicating to the “night” prayer. However, we consider that clause not as an addition but as an explanation of the previous ambigious clause; it explains the temporal direction of the ends of the day. The limits of “Nahar” (daylight) is marked by two distinct points: sunrise and sunset. In other words, two prayers should be observed not just after sunrise and before senset, but before sunrise and after sunset.
Furthermore, the traditional understanding runs into the problem of contradicting the practice of the very tradition it intend to promote. Traditionally, both morning and evening prayers are observed in a time period that Quranically is considered “LaYL” (night) since Layl starts from sunset and ends at sunrise. The word “Layl” in Arabic is more comprehensive than the word “night” used in English.
If the expression “tarafayin nahar” (both ends of the day) refers to morning and evening paryers which are part of “Layl” (night), then, the last clause cannot be describing another prayer time.
The time of NOON and EVENING PRAYER defined.
“You shall observe the contact prayer when the sun goes down until the darkness of the night. You shall also observe the Quran at dawn. Reading the Quran at dawn is witnessed.” (17:78).
The decline of the sun can be understood either its decline from the zenith marking the start of the Noon prayer or its decline behind the horizon marking the start of the Evening prayer. There are two opposing theories regarding the purpose of the usage of “duluk” (rub) in the verse; nevertheless, either understanding will not contradict the idea of 3 times a day since both Noon and Evening prayers are accepted.
MIDDLE PRAYER (Noon)
“You shall consistently observe the contact prayers, especially the MIDDLE PRAYER, and devote yourselves totally to God.” (2:238).
Verse 38:32 implies that the time of the Middle prayer ends with sunset.
We can easily understand the MIDDLE prayer as a prayer between the two other prayers mentioned by name (Dawn and Evening).
The Old Testament has at least three verses referring to Contact Prayers (Salaat) and they confirm this understanding. Though we may not trust the Biblical translations verbatim, we may not consider them as errors since both internal and external consistency of the Biblical passages regarding the Contact Prayers are striking.
“And as soon as the lad was gone, David arose out of a place toward the south, and fell on his face to the ground, and bowed himself three times: and they kissed one another, and wept one with another, until David exceeded.” (1 Samuel 20:41)
“As for me, I will call upon God; and the Lord shall save me. Evening, and morning, and at noon, will I pray, and cry aloud: and he shall hear my voice.” (Psalms 55:16-17) (PS: crying aloud apparently means praying with passion).
“Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did afortime.” (Daniel 6:10)
The followers of Shiite sect observe 5 prayers in 3 times: morning, noon and evening. This strange practice perhaps was the result of a historical compromise with the dominant Sunni 5-times-a-day practice.
More details: http://www.yuksel.org/e/religion/salaat.htm
September 23, 2009 at 2:33 am
Bravo Parvita. Whatever your intention was, I can se now people put more effort to study Islam their own believe to anwer your question & other people DOUBT. I guess back then in Islamic glorious days i bet the same/ similar interaction were occured. I just hope this is a beginning of another glorious Islam era. Where people shared their thought, ideas, feelings towards what their believe without fear being judge as kafir.