Expat Marriages: difficult to survive in Jakarta?

An old friend from work, Dale, called me several days ago, letting me know that he is back in Jakarta after taking care of his divorce from his wife.  He works in a rotating job, a month on (working in Jakarta) and a month off (home to Australia).  I don’t know how long the marriage survived, but I know he has a teenage son.  His wife was Australian.  Apparently, the wife caught him in Jakarta, in the apartment with an Indonesian woman.

We exchanged news and gossips until he mentioned another name of our colleague who is living separately from his wife at present.  He is now somewhere in Vietnam, living together with his personal trainer (who apparently has become very personal!), an Indonesian woman.  Several years ago, another friend of mine from South America got divorced from his beautiful latino wife, because he just couldn’t resist an Indonesian women.  My comment was, “Wow, now we are all full team, back in Southeast Asia and all single!” (I was married to an Indonesian though).  Dale’s comment was, “Well, it is hard to survive your marriage once you lived in Jakarta”.

Interesting comment.  Is Indonesian women really irresistable?  Are Indonesian women really that attractive that one is willing to sacrifice his marriage? Moreover, these expats mostly have no intention to marry those women. Before that, you might want to read some blogs about Indonesian Expats and the Indonesian women dating Expats are always a great topic in lots of blogs.  Like in
Indonesia Matters, and also in here, a bit braver comment here and much more.

What attracts expats, especially Caucasian expats, to Indonesian women? And usually there is a stereotype of women who are more preferred by “bule” (white expats) which you can read it here (pembantu=maids). One thing that I can understand is that for expats, Indonesian women are exotic and attractive. The tanned skin, black hair and generally smaller and slimmer than Caucasian women who they say are huge and big. Other comments that I have heard from my expat friends are that Indonesian women are friendly and warm. Another one is, easier to maintain, not as bitchy or demanding. My observation is that most of the expats go for girls who are usually not considered attractive by Indonesian men (Indonesian men prefer light skinned and ‘mix bread’ look, generally). This is where the jargon, “selera bule” (bule’ taste) is described. Most of the expats that I see go for these types are Australians, Americans and some British men, seldom mediterranian guys. But this probably has to do with the statistics of how many of them are living here.

How about the Indonesian women, how do they see expats? Some of my friends declare that they don’t want to date Indonesians plainly because Indonesian men are too demanding, less open minded and less outgoing. Most of these category are those who usually have lived abroad for their education. Unfortunately, seldom bules are after these women, probably because they are already ‘westernized’ and have good jobs and/or career. My observation is that lots of Indonesian women see expats as never-ending income source. There are lots of stories that my expat friends sometimes complain about their Indonesian girlfriends, who keeps asking for money, for example, I can even tell that they are being ripped off by the nonsense story their girlfriend tells them. And when I ask where they met this girl, it is usually in the bars, the bars that most expats hang out, like BATS, Bugils, bars along Blok M, Tigapuluh. And usually, the education level of these girls are highschool at the most, most never graduated from one of the best universities.

There is also what is called ‘ayam’ (chicks, in a notorious way), which means Indonesian girls who are basically gold diggers and they have the ‘pembantu look’. If one girl has already hooked up with an expat, the next gathering this girl will bring her friends and the friends will try to hook up with the expat’s friends in the bar. And they can get pretty agressive, one group and another can be quite competitive. It is like mafia on targeting expats, I am impressed.

And why do the expats love Jakarta so much? Because, like Dale said, in his country (Australia), he is invisible. But in here, he feels handsome. All women throwing themselved to him and makes him think like God’s gift to women. The women are so friendly, but also quite agressive. If you are a nerd back in your country, and all of a sudden you get lots of attention here, it is only human that you will like this place. But I remember several occasion when my expat friends from work dragged me to places so that I can be their “chicken repellant”.

I think everywhere in this world there is a phenomena like this, especially in poor countries. It is the economic law, supply and demand. Expats is imaged to have lots of money, the girls are after it. Expats can buy the relationship, while the girls are making a better living.

Of course this is a general view. I do have highly respected friends who are well educated and have her own career who is happily married with expats. But none of them, as far as I know, dated someone’s husband, or expect to have better living (because they can support themselves well enough). Usually they still work after they live together, while in the other case, the girls usually quit working although they are still not married. But for some reason (i.e. persuasive skill), they can really make their boyfriends pour money to them.

I am just wondering, how powerful these Indonesian women are that can make an expat leave their wives of many years. If you argue that this also happens to Indonesian men, of course it does, and maybe the marriage was already in a bad state, but when it happens to expats, it is like a sore thumb and it is eye catching. And Indonesian men usually leaves for the younger and better looks. Of course, I also know expats who are happily married with and highly educated Indonesian woman and they are so much in love. Or, expat couples who are still together and have a strong marriage. And I have enough people that I know where their marriage was ok until they met someone at the bar, Indonesian girl, then start having an affair, lucky if not get caught, be her sugar daddy, and if got caught, usually end up with divorce. And not seldom that I here from expat wives who reminds other wives to watch out in Jakarta, because you may lose your husbands to Indonesian girls. As an Indonesian woman, who works with their husbands, I do feel uncomfortable with this reminder, but i have to admit that there is a truth in it.

Especially when the guy is old enough to be their father. And the comment Dale gave me, “Once you are in Jakarta, it is very tough to survive when it comes to girls”, really tickles my mind. Are Indonesian women really that powerful? Or, heartless? Because, some of the expats wives became my friends and it is sad to see them in pain, and it is sad to see a marriage, any marriage, broken up for something that a man cannot control, or, if I may say, fatamorgana. And if it is the Indonesian girls to blame, really, are they really THAT powerful?

45 Responses to “Expat Marriages: difficult to survive in Jakarta?”

  1. the way i see it, it’s about wealth.

    a lot of westerners earn many times more than most local ppl, almost comparable to a premiership footballer over here — bules are a bit like premiership footballers. and lots of women over here are attracted to those types of lifestyles.

  2. Hey..

    i can’t answer that question. But same case i found once. A married Indonesian woman went abroad to continue her study. Up in the north, we are more beautiful than in our own country. We can get younger boys, beautiful and even richer perhaps, if we try a bit harder. Then she hooked one, not in purpose of course. Her marriage fell apart but she continues living with the bule in Europe.

    Like you said, it’s just so natural that we like a place where people appreciate us more (not necessarily better :D ). I feel more beautiful in Ireland, England than in Jakarta :D . They say i’m skinny down there. Up here they say i have nice figure. LOL. It’s also natural that we fell for another person next to us when our lover are just so far away. It’s also natural that one hurt another.

    Everything is natural, but we are human-a bit different from other animals. We are given mind, thoughts and feelings to manipulate a condition so that we can live a better live.

    No?

  3. Bule in Jakarta Says:

    It’s interesting to hear the “other side of the story”. As a single guy in Jakarta, I have witnessed exactly what you describe. My opinion is that you have to make a very difficult decision when residing in Jakrta ( the given is that Indonesian girls are really beautiful ):

    1.) You can take advantage of the ayam from the kampung and have a really great time “dating” a lot of really attractive girls. As you said, it would be hard to not look at the age difference and question if it is right. You would also have to be incredibly ignorant not to understand why these girls are interested in you. While it may break up a long term relationship, its hard to believe you can build something permanent with these ingredients.

    2.) You can try to find the combination of a smart, educated, Indoenesian woman who still has those attributes which make Indonesian women so attractive. Unfortunately, these are few and far between. I have found that most of them I meet are married. There just isn’t that many single women in Jakarta who fit that profile. If you can find one, I think the chances of establishing something worthy of a long term relationship is possible. I know a couple of people who have been successful in this journey, and they are very happy after several years of marriage.

    I guess the rules never change, what comes easy usually isn’t that great. The truly worthwhile things demand an investment.

    I also think its fair to say that everyone has to make this decision for themselves. #1 is what many expats are looking for. To be honest, I don’t think there is anything wrong with that. I certainly can’t judge them. If both parties are looking for the same thing and get it, then that is there freedom of choice to decide. The same applies to #2. If you chose that path, and bypass the ayam route, its cool. To each his own.

  4. Just found out several Indonesian women here are actually those you have described (marriage/engaged expat couples went to Indonesia, the commitment broke down and they chose to be with Indonesian ladies). Some graduated from the bar, too, but nothing’s wrong with the profession (you have to understand that in Western eyes all professions and jobs are equal. Snob mentality we inherit from Dutch colonization always look down those who work in service industry: barmaids, maids, cleaners, etc). If you see those barmaids in Bugil’s, some of them have graduated and now live with their boyfriends/husbands, somewhere abroad. But you have to realize too that if love is not genuinely presented, they will be devastated when find out that living abroad means you can’t (pretend to) be a “nyonya” and in fact must do the house chores by yourself. It’s a good test, actually *wink.

    What I don’t understand is if the guy chooses to be with someone who barely can mutter more than ‘thank you’ in English. What’s up with that?

    Anyway, whether the expat couple’s marriage can survive in Jakarta, I honestly don’t know. My expat bosses were such family men they hardly be seen out unless there was an event. But those in oil&gas, hemmmm…. :) ).

    My friend, who hangs out with Indonesian society a lot (I don’t, I’m practically invisible and only know a handful Indonesian), told me a story about some ladies go nightclubbing and pick up toy boys (husbands are offshore). Maybe this is a proof that Indonesian are irresistible?

    @Bule in Jakarta: for your number 2 mark, you have to hang out in a right place then. Parvita (and all my girlfriends) are actually the exact description of your number 2 wish, and they’re single!

  5. It’s a good writing there. I do agree in some previous comments.
    I think it’s depend on the expat, the guy. I don’t live in Jakarta, but i do know what Jakarta like, its freedom land for guys i guess. You want the naughtiest entertainment, you’ll get it, start from local ayam, striptease, call girls.. anything as long you had the money.
    I work in oil and gas so i had many expat boss. Some of them are doing some extracurriculars while in Indonesia, and some are not. But yeah.. mostly are do.
    It actually could happened anywhere. When your husband work in other country for 28:28 sched, and they miss woman so much (the main reason why they did that). Whether they were bule or locals.
    Well..i would say, bule does attract those gold diggers more, as they assumption bule=dollars=more money (those girls could only do this simple math). But of course not all girl dating with bule are gold diggers.
    When its gone then its gone… i mean the hubby. Could happen not only in Jakarta, or with Indonesia girls.
    I read somewhere.. when a man leave their marriage and children, its usually for lust. But, when a woman leave their’s mostly its because of what they think is love.
    True or not true.. well.. i’ll leave it to you.

  6. …they will be devastated when find out that living abroad means you can’t (pretend to) be a “nyonya” and in fact must do the house chores by yourself. It’s a good test, actually *wink.

    Good point there, Anita. See if they can live in small apartments with no car, do their own laundries and cook! And walk the dog and take care of their shit!

    The point of the article is, why these guys can be so blinded that they can, or they take the risk of leaving their wives and families for some women who are, well, obviously just not worth it.

    (By the way, thanks for the comment on categorizing me on #2. I should’ve added author is currently in a relationship with a single Indonesian man.)

  7. I would say it depends on each individual on how they handle the temptation. But somehow I also notice that some of Indonesian women are willing to be mistress, they are not ashame to be one as long as they can have better live and they could claim “Love” over someone else’s husband.

    That kind of women targeted big pocket men, Western and Indonesian.

  8. Bule in Jakarta Says:

    Well, if nothing else, LOL, you certainly found a topic that everyone has an opinion on…..

  9. pj_bali Says:

    I just wanted to point out that its not just indonesian women. What i mean to say here is that its sometimes very hard internally on a relationship when you take it overseas. The guy (or gal) may have their work to keep them occupied but the spouse may be the one who is stuck at home with the pembantu and the gardner. They can’t work, have left their friends behind, and, unless they can get themselves involved in the community somehow they can quickly get stressed.

    Just a thought

  10. @pj_bali: you are again out of the subject, but if you are asking my sympathy for expat wives, especially those from the oil companies, you won’t get it from me. They lead a high standard lifestyle, have all the time to do everything they want because now they have pembantus, jaga and drivers which they didn’t have back in their countries before. And the big houses. If they complain that they have no activities, bored, stressed out…I’m sorry. Lots of expat wives that I know are expanding their knowledge in the culture, expand their hobbies, involved in voluntary works, social activities, travel a lot and lead a very nice and interesting life here.

    Again, you are a bit out of the subject. We are discussing about men who can just leave their spouses for Indonesian women who, I think, are just because of a spur of lust. That’s why I was wondering how powerful these Indonesian women are, that they can really shake the guy’s heart to leave their marriages.

  11. Parvita I was trying to write a riposte, then realized that I actually had already talked about this. My article is slightly different from your point of view, but if we want to talk about the power of Indonesian ladies, well, we have to acknowledge that this… trend… doesn’t only occur to expat couples but also to Indonesians.

  12. @Anita (and Ecky): I guess I’m looking at it from the different culture point of view. If you are saying that affairs happens, yes, no matter to expat couples or Indonesian couples. Affairs, cheatings, happens within same race and ethnics as well.

    But that is NOT the point of this opinion. Most of the expats that I know, met and became friends with has stated that they like Indonesian women because they are different than Caucasian women. Not only the appearance, but also the way Indonesian women bring themselves, whether it is their submissiveness, charm, physics. One expat even told me that they don’t want to date “my kind” because I’m too westernized.

    You are probably the rare kind, where you are smart and have your own independant life when you met your husband, who happen to be a Scottishman. Where your husband prefers a women who has her head on top of their shoulders. If I look around, what I see is different. Most Caucasian guys who are invisible in their country, all of a sudden forgot about everything because they became so popular on the neighbourhood (i.e. bars, clubs, etc). They forgot that they have a family, responsibilities, and they just live in a dream thinking that they are handsome. A person who can leave all what they have (wife, children) and ready to pay allimony and split their properties, for somebody (which in this case, Indonesians who in your blog you describe as hardly can say Thank You in English), that is something. Sometimes I wonder what they discuss about after years! And it does not only happen once or twice, but there are a lot in here.

    I might be hanging out with the wrong crowd (i.e. with oil guys). But I talk to my friends who has different (i.e. ’softer’) background, like lawyers, architects, and they do agree! And remember, I hang out with these men and sometimes they think I’m one of them. I do think that Indonesians do have some sort of charm. And Dale’s comment about marriage hardly survives in Jakarta is pretty much interesting. Indonesian women are hard for expats to resist! Is this a true statement? It does lean towards that…

    Would be interesting to know if this also happens in Bangkok.

  13. Or…my friends are too naive? Or…Asian women (or in this case, Indonesians) are ‘easier’ to handle? Less maintainance? Can take care of men better? It cannot just be ‘opposite attracts’. I really don’t know…for a man willing to sacrifice all that, there must be something special about Indonesian women. I would like to hear from male expats on how they see Indonesian women!

  14. I had a female Caucasian boss whose husband joined her in Jakarta, as an expat husband I suppose. He had a hard time finding a job in Indonesia, while his wife had an exciting and often demanding career. Those days we often found our company car+driver disappeared to take the hubby golfing or getting a massage. Long story short, the hubby left the exec wife for a local woman he found at some bar. Marriage counselling ensued followed by divorce, wife ended up going back alone to her country after her contract expired. Sometimes I wondered why the hubby gave up main course for table scraps? Maybe the local lady could give what the exec wife couldn’t: major male ego boost.

    And they say that women don’t use logic…

  15. If anyone has trouble understanding why expat wives lose their husbands to Indonesian girls visit my apartment building any day of the week and take a look at what is laying around the pool. Most of the bule women are so fat and horrible that even the sun will not touch them.

  16. Bule in Jakarta Says:

    JD:

    Oh my goodness, that was funny… I had coke coming out of my nose due to the unnexpected laughing… : )

    Parvita:

    ” I would like to hear from male expats on how they see Indonesian women! ”

    I am no expert, but they seem to be more traditional about how they view their relationships and their life. Based on the people that I work with, they seem to really value family, friends, and all of their relationships. In many western cultures, we seem to be losing that. Everything is about “me” and “now” and they discard relationships pretty easily. I think that many people find the close links you see in Indonesia as refreshing.

    I would be lying if I didn’t say that Indonesian women are attractive because they look different than many western women. I think that everybody finds this intriguing, male or female, when you are in a foreign country. It tests the stereotype of what each of us find as attractive. I am sure this contributes to some of the “ditching” you refer to.

    I doubt that answers your questions and I seriously doubt if these are the primary reasons many are willing to leave their wives for an Indonesian woman, but they are my observations.

    I am happy to say that I am not in Jakarta with a wife that is ” so fat and horrible that even the sun will not touch them” LOL !!! : )

  17. Chicken repellent?!??! HAAHAHHAHA, I’ve never laughed so hard when I am reading a blog. That’s funny.

    Well ladies, those men are only human, they can’t help being attracted to Indo ladies ;) . We are sexy beings ;) . Not sure about the less maintenance thing hehehehehe.

    But I do find it sad that they see these ‘whities’ as a source of money. It’s gross really. It’s pretty much a euphemism (duno how to spell it) for prostitution. A friend of mine dates 2 guys, a 50 somthing Italian, and a late 20 Malaysian (I know he is not bule, but the point is….), and she gets Rp 5Million from each/month. She doesnt work, cos she doesnt think she needs to. I love her, but I also now avoid her, as the idea of using another human being grosses me out! She is worried everyday she will get caught, not because she likes them, cos she doesnt want the allowance to stop!! But in some ways it’s begonya si bule ma si malaysia mau give her allowance although she is not a wife. Do you agree with me that what she is doing is wrong?

  18. Clicked submit button by mistake.

    Was gonna add, that relationships break down for so many various reasons (as you and I know – I am going thru a divorce now), in a case where the wife (or hubby) is away all the time, then, it’s no surprise that the partner leaves. But when a relationship breaks down, what other people see is just the tip of the iceberg, the only people who know what really happens are the ones in the relationship. So I think in this ‘leave the wife for Indo woman’ is just the tip of the iceberg. But I duno how the Indo ladies can feel secure in a relationship where the boyfriend left the wife, if he could do it to her then he can do it to the Indo lady too right?

  19. @Lisa: that’s the case. Economy plays a big role. The expats have money, the Indonesian girls have the looks, and voila…these expats are usually after those women who are materialistic anyways. They are insecure with independant ones, category #2 by Bule in Jakarta’s definition.

    One example: if I go to the bar and got introduced to a guy by my name, the guy is being themselves. But once I was introduced with myjob title, the way they bring themselves change. And then if we decide to move to another place and saw what I drive, that’s the end of it. Speaking of quality.

  20. waduh Mbak ini topik koq seru banget ya hahaha
    i want mooore!

  21. Bule in Jakarta Says:

    Wow! reply #21….

    It’s kind of depressing to read all of the responses. It’s not hard to see that “bule” are not viewed very favorably by Indonesians in general. Its a shame, but I guess everybody has had experiences to lead them to form this opinion.

    I guess I would ask that you consider that stereotyping “bules” is like stereotyping Indonesians, it might be based on reality, but not everybody will be like the stereotype. There are people who will not fit the stereotype. It is probably better if we give everybody a chance before we judge them. We are all sharing the experience of living in Indonesia and many long lasting good relationships are formed between foreigners and Indonesians. Those relationships are bigger than the perceptions many of us might have. I know I deeply respect and admire many of the Indonesians that I work with.

    I guess I am just saying that we should judge each person as an individual and not assume they are the same as the perceptions we have of the group.

    Sorry to blah blah blah…..

    : )

  22. I stumbled upon this blog, but I have to agree. I lived in Jakarta from 85 till 93 and I am pretty damn sure that I have a half sister in Jakarta. I know my dad was unfaithful with the maid, but I have never received confirmation that her daughter is my father’s.

    That being said, the vast majority of my friends parents divorced after leaving Indonesia, mainly because of infidelities by the father. Strange, huh?

  23. Well I think the questions is rather, are western men that ‘weak’? Or, actually, are men that ‘weak’? I know MY answer, haha. I think you are attributing too much unto Indonesian women. I mean, why aren’t there more expat women leaving their husbands for Indonesian men? The beauty and wealth argument apply there as well, right?

    You are right though, it’s a matter of supply and demand, and the problem don’t only apply to expats. A female friend of mine (a clairvoyant) told me that Indonesian men are more likely to be cheating on their partner if they live in Jakarta.

    So my (temporary) conclusion is that if your relationship is not built on a strong foundation, avoid Jakarta altogether.

  24. kindred Says:

    All,
    My thoughts;
    1. Women are powerful. So are men. The genders need each other, for all sorts of reasons, too numerous to mention. Allah created men weak and impatient for sexual intercourse, after all according to the Quran.
    2. Indonesian women are powerful because they are feminine. Western men are ill equiped to handle this feminity.
    3. Romantic love and marriage is a relatively new invention. Before that it was a much more pragmatic arrangement. Marriage meet the sexual needs of sons and the material needs of daughters, providing also a framework within which there was responsibility and upbringing of children. Further back, it was a simple sex for food deal. That pragmatism can be seen in many mixed relationships here. BUT it can also be seen in 80% of all male-female relationships, regardless of where you are.
    4. Indoneisa is not the only contry where this phenomena occurs. It is also prevalent in other countries, particularly poor ones. E.g Thailand, Latin America (venezuela, Colombia, Brazil), East Europe e.g. Khazakstan, Azerbijan etc. So Indonesian women are no more powerful than women in those countries.

    In the end, male-female relationships are so complex its not surprising there is such a variety in them.

  25. I am married with Australian and live in Australia. I scared to death if my husband get a job in Indo because this topic. Anyway, I am genuine in love with my hubby rather than his money coz since teenager I DONT LIKE LOCAL Indo Man (I dont know why) Maybe just because I like the different (Physical Attraction from Caucasian Man alias BULE)

    I hope if someday we live in Jakarta I have strengthness, mentally prepare to KICK all those ‘Poison Indo women who ruined another women life for ‘GOLD’ from EXPAT Man in Indo :)

  26. have to say that western women are more often than not bitchy and demanding or to bossy, most of the expats guys i have met take solice in the fact that the indo women know how to treat a man. most of the expat guys also know that the women they are with only want them for the money (although there are a lot of genuine indo women out there who do it for love)but they dont care because they like to be treated well.

    as a bule in Jak i can tell you that we know the difference between the gold diggers and the ones who really care about us. only advice i have for the bule wives that live here is, because of the abundance of women in this country who know how to treat a guy you are going to have to lose the attitude and start to learn how to treat a guy, otherwise hes going to leave you for someone who treats him better. you got away with the attitude in your own country because of a lack of women but you wont survive for long here if you dont change!!!!

    besides its your husband right??? so how hard can it be to treat him the way he should be treated?!?!?!? like previous comments say you bule wives have pembantuan to cook, clean and drive and look after the kids so the old excuse of “im to tired!” or “im too busy!” wont work because you have the helpers.. so what should you do??? LIFT YOUR GAME treat him how he wants to be treated or GO HOME single…

    sorry ladies i know its harsh but thats how it works here. You dont have the power in this country like you did in your own, now the shoe is on the other foot and you dont like it…you know now how the guys felt before they moved to indo and lived in there western country, when he used to have to keep you happy….dont like it do you???!!!

  27. Lily Poppy Sue Says:

    Hi Bule in Jakarta,

    It’s true that no matter what, it is wrong to judge people, whom you don’t know generally and put them in one category.

    Talking about Indonesian women’s Power to lure men, like Bob’s father and Dale, our father had left our mother and us, the four children for our native Indonesian housemaid, which was as young as our younger sister, back then.
    Due to the experience, it’s hard to believe that men are faithful and that native Indonesian women are alright.

    We are Chinese Indonesian and because we could afford it, we always had and have our own housemaids, babysitter, driver and employees. These people who worked and work for us were and are mostly native Indonesian, female and male.

    Many times we got a lot of problems from the female employees, who tried to lure our father and many times we got through the crisis with a lot of heartaches and tears untill one time then.

    In our surrounding as long as we could remember, it’s almost a very common thing in Indonesia, that the Chinese Indonesian men are unfaithful to their wives because of the native Indonesian women’s aggression. Although these women might be not beautiful or educated our even inferior for and to our standards, it seems, that they have something, that other women, from other races, don’t have.

    We have asked our father frankly the reason why he left us for the other woman. He told us hesitately that the other woman give him the classical primitive male ego boosters, which make him somehow feeling differently, young, powerful, needed, sexy and etc. (So, you are right Mia.) It’s very sad to see that it seems, that men couldn’t live with their male egos. Is that why, they prefer to live with women, who are inferior to them, to stroke and hail their ego? Does it mean, even then, it’s because, that after all, men couldn’t accept the equality between men and women? An does it also mean, that actually, men just need servant to serve him in everything, instead women to love him and live with him in monogamous matrimony?

    Some Chinese Indonesian men who slept with native Indonesian women, told us, that the sex with native Indonesian women is good and more satisfying. Because of their diet, they prone to be tight and drier down there. For God Sake, if it’s really another reason to be unfaithful and go for Indonesian women, although sex is important in relationship, isn’t love more important than it? Doesn’t love help you to find a way to arrange things as you wish, dream, pray and hope? Man just should communicate truthfully and openly to each other.

    Sure, that everybody likes to gain a better life, but don’t we have conscience to do the right things on the way. And yes, we are human but it doesn’t mean, that we could act like an animal without proud, persistence, control, rules and soul. So, if you think, that no matter what the reason are, that even you have to give up everything for other woman, especially Indonesian woman, so go for it and take all the risks. Hopefully you would be happy and know what you do. One thing for sure, you don’t deserve the good things, you left behind.

    We think at the end, everything depends on you and yourself. Everything, which happens in your life is beside God’s plan and help is your own choices and decision. So, you can’t blame your human nature. There is no excuse.

  28. Lily Poppy Sue Says:

    Another things about Indonesian women, some expats claim, that Indonesian women are easier to approach than their women in their countries; some of these women, is definitely throwing herselves to them on the first conversation.

    Some claims, that they don’t have to make efforts to satisfy Indonesian women in bed. So, the sex with them is more relax. And yes, they should wine and dine these women if they want to keep these women longer for one or other reason. To make it easier, some expats make it through boyfriend – girlfriend term. Some, who are lucky enough, just have to buy a drink for this women, start a conversation, head to the hotel and say goodbye the next morning without complication.

    But some, who are not lucky enough, who lingered too long and then would like to end the relationship got a very complicated and dangerous stalking and blackmailing from these women. Some should run for their life.

  29. I am an Indonesian woman married to ‘bule’. 2,5 years back to Jakarta the ‘heavenly made’ relationship turned to be ‘hell connections’

    One thing I could conclude on too many marriages in Jakarta are falling apart : “I wish those girls have morality and strong values by not approaching or dating married men for whatever the reason is, and have a minute to think how about if they were on these men’s wives shoes”.

    ( Anyway finally my husband packed his stuff and decided to stay by his own .. well … that’s all about ‘it’ )

  30. Interesting posting! I just met a documentary film maker doing a film on this exact topic.

    Here’s the posting, with her description. She is looking for expats who have faced marriage difficulties in moving to Asia.

    http://www.thomascrampton.com/china/karen-mazurkewich-can-marriage-survive-asian-expat-life/

  31. asliwongjowo Says:

    @Parvita
    Mbak Vit, as far as I know for my self, most of wives (not only expat wives) I know who have their husbands move to work in Jakarta have pretty much the same fear as those expat wives do…because let’s face it…It’s Indonesian women who live/reside/work in Jakarta they (wives) fear of, not Indonesian women in general. to be honest, we as Indonesians who lives outside of Jakarta have a stereotype that Jakarta is too ‘westernized’, too ‘free’, full of ‘weird’ lifestyles (at least for us ‘wong ndeso’) so the tempations for a husband is amazingly is too strong.
    I, my self is about to marry a ‘bule’ this year, and honestly, when my fiancee asked me where in Indonesia we might live in the future, I suggested almost everywhere but Jakarta. No offense but Jakarta can not be considered what we propose as ‘Indonesia’ anymore if we’re talking about ‘culture’.
    @Bule in Jakarta
    As for you mentioned the two type of Indonesian women, the ayam type from kampung and the smart one, I have a question for you about the second type, are the smart one you mean is educated woman who have great career with fancy apartment and car, like to go to bars and cafe?…what about educated women who doesnt choose to be a carrer oriented woman and live in decent (aka poor) life in kampung?dare to make a third type?;)
    @Lily Poppy Sue
    I do feel sorry for what happened to your family…but I kinda smell some bit ‘underestimating attitude’ from what you call as ‘native’ (you’re not native? who is native anyways? anything but chinese?)Indonesian woman ( I understand how you then feel so to the maids) but…with all my respect…that kind of attitude will lead to some ‘racism’ against chinese Indonesian, because most of chinese Indonesian always considerate themself as not ‘native’ Indonesian (aka superior)……how about considering your self as other ethnic Indonesian..as we all know Indonesia consist of Javanese, Maduranese, Bataks etc and of course chinese origin. Relates to what you call Chinese Indonesian male who leave their family for native Indonesian maid, most of things that happen in Indonesia (sorry cant provide you with some statistic about this) is that the ‘boss’ kinda force them sexually…sometimes raping them…and treated like a slave. marrying the maids?hmmm….mostly no, just leave them pregnant and fired them,I guess. Sorry Mbak Vit…kinda out of the topic.

  32. asliwongjowo Says:

    @Lily Poppy Sue
    You said:

    “It’s true that no matter what, it is wrong to judge people, whom you don’t know generally and put them in one category.”

    “Due to the experience, it’s hard to believe that men are faithful and that native Indonesian women are alright.”

    Hmm….do you think you’re not judging people and put them in one category? I am ‘native Indonesian’ and of course not ‘chinese Indonesian’, well educated, comes from and lives in Kampung. I have MANY experiences (my sis and lots of friends)working with and for ‘chinese Indonesian’ aka ‘non-native Indonesian’ and none of those experiences lead to what we can call a respectfull and great one. We ‘native Indoensian’ all know how our ‘chinese Indonesian’ bosses and partners treated us, well educated ‘native’ with underestimating body language and vulgar unpolite words (and can u imagine and witness how to native indonesian maids?)..but honestly…I keep telling my self not to judge ‘chinese Indoensian’ as being ‘not all right’…but once again unfortunately…you just add a number of list. But no…am not gonna put you, whom I dont know, into the ‘box’ category okay?…let all readers here be the judge whether it is just a shalow judgement on ‘chinese Indoensian’ or it is the fact.
    And related to the topic, how about blaming the men also instead of pouring some hot water all into Indonesian aka ‘native’ woman.
    Peace;)

  33. Opinionated Says:

    Indonesian barmaids and girls looking for men are no different than any other desparate woman who thinks that when she hooks someone with money and status her life will be forever wonderful and all of her worries will be over. The trouble with this shallow belief is simply that if the girl is successful in hooking the bule of her dreams she will soon find out that he is exploiting her and she is using him and then the relationship will come to a grinding halt. How sad this is if the chicky has given all of her youthful years to a relationship with a sugar daddy who in actuality has no intention of taking their relationship to the next level

  34. interesting topic. It is good to know those foreigners opinion about us ( indonesian, especially woman).

  35. I do agree with asliwongjowo 100 % in responding on chinese’s attitude in general. Mostly they are ill mannered, arrogant and rude in treating their native Indonesian maids.
    I think it is not tolerable anymore. However, chinese are not the original dwellers of this country. They are merely a flock of shameless strangers in Indonesia.

  36. that’s great man, i think i go as expat to indonesia jakarta, coz i am also orang indo di belanda, so while discovering my roots maybe i can meet those indonesian ladies,

    but on the question if indonesian girl more exotic, i don’t no. i think just bule want’s to taste something different, like maybe in 50 years we are all light tab brown skin coz of inter marriage, so who cares?

  37. Wow…such an ironic life in the most populous Muslim country in the world. Well, I do believe that everyone has a moment of weakness, whether it be as harmless as a shopping frenzy or extreme as infidelity. However, the latter being the ultimate mess up in a relationship. Sometimes poverty leads to extremes, such as “using an overweight old fart bule” for personal welfare. I do apologize for the obsene description but I have seen this in Malls and Restaurants across Jakarta and I’m totally floored when I see a 20 something beautiful Indonesian girl with a 60 something barely able to walk in a straight line bule holding hands and all lovey dovey. Yes, I’m an attractive, highly educated expat wife who is not spoiled by the house staff . I still cook, occasionaly clean and look after my children. I treat my man like a king in his palace by being respectful, thoughtful, supportive, loving and trustful. I give him his space. I do agree that many Indonesian (not all) women are like scavengers looking for a meal ticket (men with money). Those who do fall prey (married men or men with commited relationships or lack of) are usually equipped with an empty ego, lonely, sad, confused, stressed to the max or just filthy animals who do not comprehend the meaning of loyalty. I have seen stunning expat wifes dumped for local girls becasue their husbands can dump them…I have seen many years of marriage exchanged for a day of lust and shrewd entertainment. And the question remains why? BTW, I have travelled extensively around the world, across many continents and Indonesia ranks at the top for corruption in marital ties. It’s truely unfortunate. I have spoken to young Indoneisan women about this issue and most of them respond that it’s easier then getting an education or working and it’s an “advance” in their improvished lifestyles. When asked about their conscious and the wifes that may possiblly lose a spouse, they said that the world is a competitive arena! Wow, so much for the human species being distinctive from the animal species…I suppose it’s the survival of the fittest…literally! I guess we expat wifes best as to dig up our boxing gloves and take stance! It’s going to be a dirty fight to the finish!

  38. Opinionated Says:

    Eventhough expat wives may be very comfortable that their marriage is secure and that their relationship is based on love and trust everyone living in Jakarta should be aware that everyone has weak moments and that there are desparate individuals lurking in your homes purposely looking for every opportunity to swoop in and create chaos and unrest in your marriage. These women would do anything to have your lifestyle and level of financial security. Once they see an opportunity to meddle with your hubby the next step is to offer comfort from the storm… and we all know that the storm is more difficult to withstand when we don’t have close extended family support close by.

    Yes we have each other and if we are totally steadfast in our marriage then nothing or nobody will be able to penetrate this trust and union but if we are stressed out, unsettled and maybe a little home sick then we are vulnerable to manipulation and subject to harassment.

    Boxing gloves just don’t cut it.

  39. Dear Opinionated,
    With all due respect, I’m a bit confused with your response? You seem to sway from negative to positive and again negative. So if a couple is truely grounded in their marriage, a moment of weakness will overtake? I don’t understand. So does the old addage, what the eyes don’t see, the heart can’t bleed? I do understand that their are women who lurk in the dark waiting to pounce on a good catch-considering that the catch is willing to give up a relationship he’s in (if committed). I think all men have cheated on their spouses in one way or another. Albeit, chats on the ol’cell phone with girls or visits to supposed “Family massage parlours”. Who knows. Especially, when the wife is away, the mouse comes out to play. Whatever the reason, its truely unfortunate. It happens. Can happen anywhere. But Jakarta ranks right up with the most notorious cities for broken family ties. Basically, we can only work hard to keep our marriages strong as you have alluded to. On the flip side, spouses can stray. So what can you do? Monitor them? And I agree whole heartdly that family is the safety net and a shoulder to lean on when times are bad. So what shall expat wifes do? I’m 200% sure that you understood Boxing Gloves as a figure of speech…won’t you agree that wifes would have to up the ante? Question is how?

  40. Opinionated Says:

    Dear Lily,

    Just want to say that the chances of infedelity in Jakarta are very high. Most likely expat wives who live there will want to make the best of it and try to keep a positive relationship going with their spouseand children. I really think that we all just need to manifest good things and spoil our spouses like crazy! Keep the positive and always the love. It takes more awareness and conscious effort to maintain a valued relationship and it’s worth it. Keep your connection and try to think of an expat marriage in a foreign country as an adventure and as an opportunity to build on your love and trust. Just don’t allow the inevitable opportunists to be able to see a weak moment and an opportunity to invade your relationship. Rise above the chaos and negativity. Keep the love.

    Yes, boxing gloves just don’t cut it!! We must get out of the arena!!

    Talk soon,
    Opinionated

  41. Dear Opinionated,

    I imagine that you are an expat wife here, as I am. As I have mentioned before, I’m a strong, educated loving mother and wife. I have no insecurites, however, sometimes say things that are shallow to my hubby because of certain observances in Jakarta. For instance, one of my fellow expat wife friends’ husband is an avid golfer who plays with the guys often. He always brags to his wife about how ‘friendly and beautiful the caddies are’. My hubby wants to take up golfing and when I bring things up like this he gets very defensive. I try not to allow my mind to become polluted with all the rubbish that I hear and see. However, it becomes quite a challenge and redirects my thinking. It’s a tough jungle to survive. Relationship wise that is. I heard a lady who had an extremely shy husband is contemplating to leave him after discovering he had casual girls call him and send text messages to him after he visited numerous night clubs and massage parlours during a handover in jakarta. She was in europe for two months waiting for kids to finish school when he was here ‘working’ on the new move/job. Now the lady is going back and forth between leaving or “rising above the chaos and negativity”. I suppose once trust is dented it’s difficult to mend what remains. Worst part is, he blamed her for not coming sooner to be with him. Scary! Well, Opinionated, shall she leave the ‘arena’ or tread deep murky water?

    Waiting to hear from you…

    Lily

  42. Opinionated Says:

    Dear Lily,
    No I am no longer an expat in Jakarta but was for 8 years. We have some very good memories and some not so good ones. It was a balance I suppose. I’ve seen many marriages collapse in that environment and ours almost did too. I really just want to make all of the expat wives aware of their vulnerability because all of the expat men think they are friggin rock stars!!! Keep the home fire burning and try to bring him down to earth!!

    What I mean by getting out of the arena is don’t lower yourself to compete with the homewreckers! Just turn your back on it all!!

  43. Dear Opinionated,
    I like the way you think. You seem to be a wise woman who is grounded. And yes, many Expat Men think they are rock stars here because Indonesian girls/women are the fuel for this illusion. Men have something that needs to stay conditioned and alive…ego. And I have seen how men feel around females here. Some of these men are so ugly, overweight, and are clueless about charm. However, when an Indo Ayam is all over them, flirting, giggling and whispering sweet nothings (in Bahasa, I presume?), they feel like kings of the world! And what the hell are married men doing in night clubs and raunchy bars in Jakarta in the first place? Esp, when wifes are away. As soon as the wife is back in town, they assume the role of wholesome, saintly hubby! This is ludicrous! So dear Opinionated, what shall the expat wifes do with their men? Esp the ones that come from very traditional homes. Standby. React. Accuse. Threaten. Leave. Like I said before, our marriage seems solid, knock on wood. And I don’t let the posion saturate my mind. However, I have to mention that I was quite annoyed one time when my hubby, kids and I went out for lunch at a golf club house and the waitress, who was stunningly attractive, was leaning litteraly a few inches away from my hubby’s face to take a order. Very flirtatiously, may i add. I was just coming back from the restroom. When she saw me she smiled. I smiled back. And became really upset when her friend pretended to drop a spoon and pick it up by bending at the waist, in a mini, right next to my hubby! For God’s sake, the wife and kids are there! My hubby pretended not to see anything. And some golfers, expat men, at the next table kept bragging about how cute their caddies were and how petite they were and how ‘helpful’ they were when they had pulled a muscle on the green. All this during a mid-day lunch with the family. For the sake of class, I dare not tread the sleazy low class bars and night clubs here, even the supposed high class ones, are a no-no. And I have heard disgusting occurances transpire…while supposedly loving expat men who are fathers and husbands race against time to hit as many clubs as possible. I even heard some night clubs pass out glasses to women upon entrance and condoms for guys! Wow! You can tell by now that I’m quite conservative. |It’s a no holds barred world in this city! So what do I do now? Abandon traveling overseas to see my family for the sake of keeping tabs on my man? I trust him wholeheartdly, however, in the line of business he’s in, he needs to entertain clients, many of whom are single. I’m confused…

  44. Is Pravita still actively reading these blogs…would like to get an opinion from her…

    • Hi, I still follow this thread quietly. I don’t know what to say besides that I’m single and I don’t have the worries like you both do, I can’t force a guy to like me all the time and vise versa. It is interesting to see opinions and thoughts of expat wives, expats and others.

      I am a firm believer that nobody from outside can ruin a marriage. Only the husband or wife can ruin it. I don’t believe in a third person, because if a marriage is strong, no other people can break into it. So if your partner can easily be persuaded by what is out there, it is just his quality or you have to look back at the quality of your marriage/relationship or the quality of yourself. Besides worrying about those things, if I was an expat wife, I would pick up something useful and interesting with the whole time and facilities that they have. Pick up new hobbies, discover people, learn the local culture, make the most out of life and make yourself interesting.

      That’s my two cents.

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