Expat Marriages: difficult to survive in Jakarta?
An old friend from work, Dale, called me several days ago, letting me know that he is back in Jakarta after taking care of his divorce from his wife. He works in a rotating job, a month on (working in Jakarta) and a month off (home to Australia). I don’t know how long the marriage survived, but I know he has a teenage son. His wife was Australian. Apparently, the wife caught him in Jakarta, in the apartment with an Indonesian woman.
We exchanged news and gossips until he mentioned another name of our colleague who is living separately from his wife at present. He is now somewhere in Vietnam, living together with his personal trainer (who apparently has become very personal!), an Indonesian woman. Several years ago, another friend of mine from South America got divorced from his beautiful latino wife, because he just couldn’t resist an Indonesian women. My comment was, “Wow, now we are all full team, back in Southeast Asia and all single!” (I was married to an Indonesian though). Dale’s comment was, “Well, it is hard to survive your marriage once you lived in Jakarta”.
Interesting comment. Is Indonesian women really irresistable? Are Indonesian women really that attractive that one is willing to sacrifice his marriage? Moreover, these expats mostly have no intention to marry those women. Before that, you might want to read some blogs about Indonesian Expats and the Indonesian women dating Expats are always a great topic in lots of blogs. Like in
Indonesia Matters, and also in here, a bit braver comment here and much more.
What attracts expats, especially Caucasian expats, to Indonesian women? And usually there is a stereotype of women who are more preferred by “bule” (white expats) which you can read it here (pembantu=maids). One thing that I can understand is that for expats, Indonesian women are exotic and attractive. The tanned skin, black hair and generally smaller and slimmer than Caucasian women who they say are huge and big. Other comments that I have heard from my expat friends are that Indonesian women are friendly and warm. Another one is, easier to maintain, not as bitchy or demanding. My observation is that most of the expats go for girls who are usually not considered attractive by Indonesian men (Indonesian men prefer light skinned and ‘mix bread’ look, generally). This is where the jargon, “selera bule” (bule’ taste) is described. Most of the expats that I see go for these types are Australians, Americans and some British men, seldom mediterranian guys. But this probably has to do with the statistics of how many of them are living here.
How about the Indonesian women, how do they see expats? Some of my friends declare that they don’t want to date Indonesians plainly because Indonesian men are too demanding, less open minded and less outgoing. Most of these category are those who usually have lived abroad for their education. Unfortunately, seldom bules are after these women, probably because they are already ‘westernized’ and have good jobs and/or career. My observation is that lots of Indonesian women see expats as never-ending income source. There are lots of stories that my expat friends sometimes complain about their Indonesian girlfriends, who keeps asking for money, for example, I can even tell that they are being ripped off by the nonsense story their girlfriend tells them. And when I ask where they met this girl, it is usually in the bars, the bars that most expats hang out, like BATS, Bugils, bars along Blok M, Tigapuluh. And usually, the education level of these girls are highschool at the most, most never graduated from one of the best universities.
There is also what is called ‘ayam’ (chicks, in a notorious way), which means Indonesian girls who are basically gold diggers and they have the ‘pembantu look’. If one girl has already hooked up with an expat, the next gathering this girl will bring her friends and the friends will try to hook up with the expat’s friends in the bar. And they can get pretty agressive, one group and another can be quite competitive. It is like mafia on targeting expats, I am impressed.
And why do the expats love Jakarta so much? Because, like Dale said, in his country (Australia), he is invisible. But in here, he feels handsome. All women throwing themselved to him and makes him think like God’s gift to women. The women are so friendly, but also quite agressive. If you are a nerd back in your country, and all of a sudden you get lots of attention here, it is only human that you will like this place. But I remember several occasion when my expat friends from work dragged me to places so that I can be their “chicken repellant”.
I think everywhere in this world there is a phenomena like this, especially in poor countries. It is the economic law, supply and demand. Expats is imaged to have lots of money, the girls are after it. Expats can buy the relationship, while the girls are making a better living.
Of course this is a general view. I do have highly respected friends who are well educated and have her own career who is happily married with expats. But none of them, as far as I know, dated someone’s husband, or expect to have better living (because they can support themselves well enough). Usually they still work after they live together, while in the other case, the girls usually quit working although they are still not married. But for some reason (i.e. persuasive skill), they can really make their boyfriends pour money to them.
I am just wondering, how powerful these Indonesian women are that can make an expat leave their wives of many years. If you argue that this also happens to Indonesian men, of course it does, and maybe the marriage was already in a bad state, but when it happens to expats, it is like a sore thumb and it is eye catching. And Indonesian men usually leaves for the younger and better looks. Of course, I also know expats who are happily married with and highly educated Indonesian woman and they are so much in love. Or, expat couples who are still together and have a strong marriage. And I have enough people that I know where their marriage was ok until they met someone at the bar, Indonesian girl, then start having an affair, lucky if not get caught, be her sugar daddy, and if got caught, usually end up with divorce. And not seldom that I here from expat wives who reminds other wives to watch out in Jakarta, because you may lose your husbands to Indonesian girls. As an Indonesian woman, who works with their husbands, I do feel uncomfortable with this reminder, but i have to admit that there is a truth in it.
Especially when the guy is old enough to be their father. And the comment Dale gave me, “Once you are in Jakarta, it is very tough to survive when it comes to girls”, really tickles my mind. Are Indonesian women really that powerful? Or, heartless? Because, some of the expats wives became my friends and it is sad to see them in pain, and it is sad to see a marriage, any marriage, broken up for something that a man cannot control, or, if I may say, fatamorgana. And if it is the Indonesian girls to blame, really, are they really THAT powerful?
April 5, 2008 at 9:25 pm
the way i see it, it’s about wealth.
a lot of westerners earn many times more than most local ppl, almost comparable to a premiership footballer over here — bules are a bit like premiership footballers. and lots of women over here are attracted to those types of lifestyles.
April 6, 2008 at 2:36 pm
Hey..
i can’t answer that question. But same case i found once. A married Indonesian woman went abroad to continue her study. Up in the north, we are more beautiful than in our own country. We can get younger boys, beautiful and even richer perhaps, if we try a bit harder. Then she hooked one, not in purpose of course. Her marriage fell apart but she continues living with the bule in Europe.
Like you said, it’s just so natural that we like a place where people appreciate us more (not necessarily better
). I feel more beautiful in Ireland, England than in Jakarta
. They say i’m skinny down there. Up here they say i have nice figure. LOL. It’s also natural that we fell for another person next to us when our lover are just so far away. It’s also natural that one hurt another.
Everything is natural, but we are human-a bit different from other animals. We are given mind, thoughts and feelings to manipulate a condition so that we can live a better live.
No?
April 6, 2008 at 5:35 pm
It’s interesting to hear the “other side of the story”. As a single guy in Jakarta, I have witnessed exactly what you describe. My opinion is that you have to make a very difficult decision when residing in Jakrta ( the given is that Indonesian girls are really beautiful ):
1.) You can take advantage of the ayam from the kampung and have a really great time “dating” a lot of really attractive girls. As you said, it would be hard to not look at the age difference and question if it is right. You would also have to be incredibly ignorant not to understand why these girls are interested in you. While it may break up a long term relationship, its hard to believe you can build something permanent with these ingredients.
2.) You can try to find the combination of a smart, educated, Indoenesian woman who still has those attributes which make Indonesian women so attractive. Unfortunately, these are few and far between. I have found that most of them I meet are married. There just isn’t that many single women in Jakarta who fit that profile. If you can find one, I think the chances of establishing something worthy of a long term relationship is possible. I know a couple of people who have been successful in this journey, and they are very happy after several years of marriage.
I guess the rules never change, what comes easy usually isn’t that great. The truly worthwhile things demand an investment.
I also think its fair to say that everyone has to make this decision for themselves. #1 is what many expats are looking for. To be honest, I don’t think there is anything wrong with that. I certainly can’t judge them. If both parties are looking for the same thing and get it, then that is there freedom of choice to decide. The same applies to #2. If you chose that path, and bypass the ayam route, its cool. To each his own.
November 12, 2009 at 6:05 pm
well i am Indonesian who dating with bule. we are really inlove and plan to get married next year. I m working as Branch Manager and have 2 kids. i can live myself without demanding from any man including bule. I dont have dark skin but yes i have black hair.and i m well educated
but i also realized that those things are existed. pretty shamed. But we cannot judge people from that becoz we never know what the inside of their heart. But one thing that i agree, i hate to see broken married specially becoz of other person.
last wish : please guys ..think..think..think… before u lost everything:)
April 7, 2008 at 1:47 pm
Just found out several Indonesian women here are actually those you have described (marriage/engaged expat couples went to Indonesia, the commitment broke down and they chose to be with Indonesian ladies). Some graduated from the bar, too, but nothing’s wrong with the profession (you have to understand that in Western eyes all professions and jobs are equal. Snob mentality we inherit from Dutch colonization always look down those who work in service industry: barmaids, maids, cleaners, etc). If you see those barmaids in Bugil’s, some of them have graduated and now live with their boyfriends/husbands, somewhere abroad. But you have to realize too that if love is not genuinely presented, they will be devastated when find out that living abroad means you can’t (pretend to) be a “nyonya” and in fact must do the house chores by yourself. It’s a good test, actually *wink.
What I don’t understand is if the guy chooses to be with someone who barely can mutter more than ‘thank you’ in English. What’s up with that?
Anyway, whether the expat couple’s marriage can survive in Jakarta, I honestly don’t know. My expat bosses were such family men they hardly be seen out unless there was an event. But those in oil&gas, hemmmm….
).
My friend, who hangs out with Indonesian society a lot (I don’t, I’m practically invisible and only know a handful Indonesian), told me a story about some ladies go nightclubbing and pick up toy boys (husbands are offshore). Maybe this is a proof that Indonesian are irresistible?
@Bule in Jakarta: for your number 2 mark, you have to hang out in a right place then. Parvita (and all my girlfriends) are actually the exact description of your number 2 wish, and they’re single!
April 7, 2008 at 2:36 pm
It’s a good writing there. I do agree in some previous comments.
I think it’s depend on the expat, the guy. I don’t live in Jakarta, but i do know what Jakarta like, its freedom land for guys i guess. You want the naughtiest entertainment, you’ll get it, start from local ayam, striptease, call girls.. anything as long you had the money.
I work in oil and gas so i had many expat boss. Some of them are doing some extracurriculars while in Indonesia, and some are not. But yeah.. mostly are do.
It actually could happened anywhere. When your husband work in other country for 28:28 sched, and they miss woman so much (the main reason why they did that). Whether they were bule or locals.
Well..i would say, bule does attract those gold diggers more, as they assumption bule=dollars=more money (those girls could only do this simple math). But of course not all girl dating with bule are gold diggers.
When its gone then its gone… i mean the hubby. Could happen not only in Jakarta, or with Indonesia girls.
I read somewhere.. when a man leave their marriage and children, its usually for lust. But, when a woman leave their’s mostly its because of what they think is love.
True or not true.. well.. i’ll leave it to you.
April 7, 2008 at 2:57 pm
Good point there, Anita. See if they can live in small apartments with no car, do their own laundries and cook! And walk the dog and take care of their shit!
The point of the article is, why these guys can be so blinded that they can, or they take the risk of leaving their wives and families for some women who are, well, obviously just not worth it.
(By the way, thanks for the comment on categorizing me on #2. I should’ve added author is currently in a relationship with a single Indonesian man.)
April 7, 2008 at 3:21 pm
I would say it depends on each individual on how they handle the temptation. But somehow I also notice that some of Indonesian women are willing to be mistress, they are not ashame to be one as long as they can have better live and they could claim “Love” over someone else’s husband.
That kind of women targeted big pocket men, Western and Indonesian.
April 7, 2008 at 8:29 pm
Well, if nothing else, LOL, you certainly found a topic that everyone has an opinion on…..
April 8, 2008 at 3:54 pm
I just wanted to point out that its not just indonesian women. What i mean to say here is that its sometimes very hard internally on a relationship when you take it overseas. The guy (or gal) may have their work to keep them occupied but the spouse may be the one who is stuck at home with the pembantu and the gardner. They can’t work, have left their friends behind, and, unless they can get themselves involved in the community somehow they can quickly get stressed.
Just a thought
April 9, 2008 at 8:18 am
@pj_bali: you are again out of the subject, but if you are asking my sympathy for expat wives, especially those from the oil companies, you won’t get it from me. They lead a high standard lifestyle, have all the time to do everything they want because now they have pembantus, jaga and drivers which they didn’t have back in their countries before. And the big houses. If they complain that they have no activities, bored, stressed out…I’m sorry. Lots of expat wives that I know are expanding their knowledge in the culture, expand their hobbies, involved in voluntary works, social activities, travel a lot and lead a very nice and interesting life here.
Again, you are a bit out of the subject. We are discussing about men who can just leave their spouses for Indonesian women who, I think, are just because of a spur of lust. That’s why I was wondering how powerful these Indonesian women are, that they can really shake the guy’s heart to leave their marriages.
April 9, 2008 at 1:50 pm
Parvita I was trying to write a riposte, then realized that I actually had already talked about this. My article is slightly different from your point of view, but if we want to talk about the power of Indonesian ladies, well, we have to acknowledge that this… trend… doesn’t only occur to expat couples but also to Indonesians.
April 9, 2008 at 3:05 pm
@Anita (and Ecky): I guess I’m looking at it from the different culture point of view. If you are saying that affairs happens, yes, no matter to expat couples or Indonesian couples. Affairs, cheatings, happens within same race and ethnics as well.
But that is NOT the point of this opinion. Most of the expats that I know, met and became friends with has stated that they like Indonesian women because they are different than Caucasian women. Not only the appearance, but also the way Indonesian women bring themselves, whether it is their submissiveness, charm, physics. One expat even told me that they don’t want to date “my kind” because I’m too westernized.
You are probably the rare kind, where you are smart and have your own independant life when you met your husband, who happen to be a Scottishman. Where your husband prefers a women who has her head on top of their shoulders. If I look around, what I see is different. Most Caucasian guys who are invisible in their country, all of a sudden forgot about everything because they became so popular on the neighbourhood (i.e. bars, clubs, etc). They forgot that they have a family, responsibilities, and they just live in a dream thinking that they are handsome. A person who can leave all what they have (wife, children) and ready to pay allimony and split their properties, for somebody (which in this case, Indonesians who in your blog you describe as hardly can say Thank You in English), that is something. Sometimes I wonder what they discuss about after years! And it does not only happen once or twice, but there are a lot in here.
I might be hanging out with the wrong crowd (i.e. with oil guys). But I talk to my friends who has different (i.e. ’softer’) background, like lawyers, architects, and they do agree! And remember, I hang out with these men and sometimes they think I’m one of them. I do think that Indonesians do have some sort of charm. And Dale’s comment about marriage hardly survives in Jakarta is pretty much interesting. Indonesian women are hard for expats to resist! Is this a true statement? It does lean towards that…
Would be interesting to know if this also happens in Bangkok.
April 9, 2008 at 3:43 pm
Or…my friends are too naive? Or…Asian women (or in this case, Indonesians) are ‘easier’ to handle? Less maintainance? Can take care of men better? It cannot just be ‘opposite attracts’. I really don’t know…for a man willing to sacrifice all that, there must be something special about Indonesian women. I would like to hear from male expats on how they see Indonesian women!
April 10, 2008 at 9:31 am
I had a female Caucasian boss whose husband joined her in Jakarta, as an expat husband I suppose. He had a hard time finding a job in Indonesia, while his wife had an exciting and often demanding career. Those days we often found our company car+driver disappeared to take the hubby golfing or getting a massage. Long story short, the hubby left the exec wife for a local woman he found at some bar. Marriage counselling ensued followed by divorce, wife ended up going back alone to her country after her contract expired. Sometimes I wondered why the hubby gave up main course for table scraps? Maybe the local lady could give what the exec wife couldn’t: major male ego boost.
And they say that women don’t use logic…
April 10, 2008 at 1:20 pm
If anyone has trouble understanding why expat wives lose their husbands to Indonesian girls visit my apartment building any day of the week and take a look at what is laying around the pool. Most of the bule women are so fat and horrible that even the sun will not touch them.
April 13, 2008 at 5:25 pm
JD:
Oh my goodness, that was funny… I had coke coming out of my nose due to the unnexpected laughing… : )
Parvita:
” I would like to hear from male expats on how they see Indonesian women! ”
I am no expert, but they seem to be more traditional about how they view their relationships and their life. Based on the people that I work with, they seem to really value family, friends, and all of their relationships. In many western cultures, we seem to be losing that. Everything is about “me” and “now” and they discard relationships pretty easily. I think that many people find the close links you see in Indonesia as refreshing.
I would be lying if I didn’t say that Indonesian women are attractive because they look different than many western women. I think that everybody finds this intriguing, male or female, when you are in a foreign country. It tests the stereotype of what each of us find as attractive. I am sure this contributes to some of the “ditching” you refer to.
I doubt that answers your questions and I seriously doubt if these are the primary reasons many are willing to leave their wives for an Indonesian woman, but they are my observations.
I am happy to say that I am not in Jakarta with a wife that is ” so fat and horrible that even the sun will not touch them” LOL !!! : )
April 14, 2008 at 5:01 pm
Chicken repellent?!??! HAAHAHHAHA, I’ve never laughed so hard when I am reading a blog. That’s funny.
Well ladies, those men are only human, they can’t help being attracted to Indo ladies
. We are sexy beings
. Not sure about the less maintenance thing hehehehehe.
But I do find it sad that they see these ‘whities’ as a source of money. It’s gross really. It’s pretty much a euphemism (duno how to spell it) for prostitution. A friend of mine dates 2 guys, a 50 somthing Italian, and a late 20 Malaysian (I know he is not bule, but the point is….), and she gets Rp 5Million from each/month. She doesnt work, cos she doesnt think she needs to. I love her, but I also now avoid her, as the idea of using another human being grosses me out! She is worried everyday she will get caught, not because she likes them, cos she doesnt want the allowance to stop!! But in some ways it’s begonya si bule ma si malaysia mau give her allowance although she is not a wife. Do you agree with me that what she is doing is wrong?
April 14, 2008 at 5:17 pm
Clicked submit button by mistake.
Was gonna add, that relationships break down for so many various reasons (as you and I know – I am going thru a divorce now), in a case where the wife (or hubby) is away all the time, then, it’s no surprise that the partner leaves. But when a relationship breaks down, what other people see is just the tip of the iceberg, the only people who know what really happens are the ones in the relationship. So I think in this ‘leave the wife for Indo woman’ is just the tip of the iceberg. But I duno how the Indo ladies can feel secure in a relationship where the boyfriend left the wife, if he could do it to her then he can do it to the Indo lady too right?
April 15, 2008 at 7:56 am
@Lisa: that’s the case. Economy plays a big role. The expats have money, the Indonesian girls have the looks, and voila…these expats are usually after those women who are materialistic anyways. They are insecure with independant ones, category #2 by Bule in Jakarta’s definition.
One example: if I go to the bar and got introduced to a guy by my name, the guy is being themselves. But once I was introduced with myjob title, the way they bring themselves change. And then if we decide to move to another place and saw what I drive, that’s the end of it. Speaking of quality.
April 17, 2008 at 4:32 pm
waduh Mbak ini topik koq seru banget ya hahaha
i want mooore!
April 17, 2008 at 6:30 pm
Wow! reply #21….
It’s kind of depressing to read all of the responses. It’s not hard to see that “bule” are not viewed very favorably by Indonesians in general. Its a shame, but I guess everybody has had experiences to lead them to form this opinion.
I guess I would ask that you consider that stereotyping “bules” is like stereotyping Indonesians, it might be based on reality, but not everybody will be like the stereotype. There are people who will not fit the stereotype. It is probably better if we give everybody a chance before we judge them. We are all sharing the experience of living in Indonesia and many long lasting good relationships are formed between foreigners and Indonesians. Those relationships are bigger than the perceptions many of us might have. I know I deeply respect and admire many of the Indonesians that I work with.
I guess I am just saying that we should judge each person as an individual and not assume they are the same as the perceptions we have of the group.
Sorry to blah blah blah…..
: )
April 19, 2008 at 4:38 am
I stumbled upon this blog, but I have to agree. I lived in Jakarta from 85 till 93 and I am pretty damn sure that I have a half sister in Jakarta. I know my dad was unfaithful with the maid, but I have never received confirmation that her daughter is my father’s.
That being said, the vast majority of my friends parents divorced after leaving Indonesia, mainly because of infidelities by the father. Strange, huh?
April 19, 2008 at 2:39 pm
Well I think the questions is rather, are western men that ‘weak’? Or, actually, are men that ‘weak’? I know MY answer, haha. I think you are attributing too much unto Indonesian women. I mean, why aren’t there more expat women leaving their husbands for Indonesian men? The beauty and wealth argument apply there as well, right?
You are right though, it’s a matter of supply and demand, and the problem don’t only apply to expats. A female friend of mine (a clairvoyant) told me that Indonesian men are more likely to be cheating on their partner if they live in Jakarta.
So my (temporary) conclusion is that if your relationship is not built on a strong foundation, avoid Jakarta altogether.
May 2, 2008 at 8:52 pm
All,
My thoughts;
1. Women are powerful. So are men. The genders need each other, for all sorts of reasons, too numerous to mention. Allah created men weak and impatient for sexual intercourse, after all according to the Quran.
2. Indonesian women are powerful because they are feminine. Western men are ill equiped to handle this feminity.
3. Romantic love and marriage is a relatively new invention. Before that it was a much more pragmatic arrangement. Marriage meet the sexual needs of sons and the material needs of daughters, providing also a framework within which there was responsibility and upbringing of children. Further back, it was a simple sex for food deal. That pragmatism can be seen in many mixed relationships here. BUT it can also be seen in 80% of all male-female relationships, regardless of where you are.
4. Indoneisa is not the only contry where this phenomena occurs. It is also prevalent in other countries, particularly poor ones. E.g Thailand, Latin America (venezuela, Colombia, Brazil), East Europe e.g. Khazakstan, Azerbijan etc. So Indonesian women are no more powerful than women in those countries.
In the end, male-female relationships are so complex its not surprising there is such a variety in them.
August 29, 2008 at 8:12 pm
I am married with Australian and live in Australia. I scared to death if my husband get a job in Indo because this topic. Anyway, I am genuine in love with my hubby rather than his money coz since teenager I DONT LIKE LOCAL Indo Man (I dont know why) Maybe just because I like the different (Physical Attraction from Caucasian Man alias BULE)
I hope if someday we live in Jakarta I have strengthness, mentally prepare to KICK all those ‘Poison Indo women who ruined another women life for ‘GOLD’ from EXPAT Man in Indo
September 5, 2008 at 9:34 pm
have to say that western women are more often than not bitchy and demanding or to bossy, most of the expats guys i have met take solice in the fact that the indo women know how to treat a man. most of the expat guys also know that the women they are with only want them for the money (although there are a lot of genuine indo women out there who do it for love)but they dont care because they like to be treated well.
as a bule in Jak i can tell you that we know the difference between the gold diggers and the ones who really care about us. only advice i have for the bule wives that live here is, because of the abundance of women in this country who know how to treat a guy you are going to have to lose the attitude and start to learn how to treat a guy, otherwise hes going to leave you for someone who treats him better. you got away with the attitude in your own country because of a lack of women but you wont survive for long here if you dont change!!!!
besides its your husband right??? so how hard can it be to treat him the way he should be treated?!?!?!? like previous comments say you bule wives have pembantuan to cook, clean and drive and look after the kids so the old excuse of “im to tired!” or “im too busy!” wont work because you have the helpers.. so what should you do??? LIFT YOUR GAME treat him how he wants to be treated or GO HOME single…
sorry ladies i know its harsh but thats how it works here. You dont have the power in this country like you did in your own, now the shoe is on the other foot and you dont like it…you know now how the guys felt before they moved to indo and lived in there western country, when he used to have to keep you happy….dont like it do you???!!!
November 8, 2008 at 3:56 am
Hi Bule in Jakarta,
It’s true that no matter what, it is wrong to judge people, whom you don’t know generally and put them in one category.
Talking about Indonesian women’s Power to lure men, like Bob’s father and Dale, our father had left our mother and us, the four children for our native Indonesian housemaid, which was as young as our younger sister, back then.
Due to the experience, it’s hard to believe that men are faithful and that native Indonesian women are alright.
We are Chinese Indonesian and because we could afford it, we always had and have our own housemaids, babysitter, driver and employees. These people who worked and work for us were and are mostly native Indonesian, female and male.
Many times we got a lot of problems from the female employees, who tried to lure our father and many times we got through the crisis with a lot of heartaches and tears untill one time then.
In our surrounding as long as we could remember, it’s almost a very common thing in Indonesia, that the Chinese Indonesian men are unfaithful to their wives because of the native Indonesian women’s aggression. Although these women might be not beautiful or educated our even inferior for and to our standards, it seems, that they have something, that other women, from other races, don’t have.
We have asked our father frankly the reason why he left us for the other woman. He told us hesitately that the other woman give him the classical primitive male ego boosters, which make him somehow feeling differently, young, powerful, needed, sexy and etc. (So, you are right Mia.) It’s very sad to see that it seems, that men couldn’t live with their male egos. Is that why, they prefer to live with women, who are inferior to them, to stroke and hail their ego? Does it mean, even then, it’s because, that after all, men couldn’t accept the equality between men and women? An does it also mean, that actually, men just need servant to serve him in everything, instead women to love him and live with him in monogamous matrimony?
Some Chinese Indonesian men who slept with native Indonesian women, told us, that the sex with native Indonesian women is good and more satisfying. Because of their diet, they prone to be tight and drier down there. For God Sake, if it’s really another reason to be unfaithful and go for Indonesian women, although sex is important in relationship, isn’t love more important than it? Doesn’t love help you to find a way to arrange things as you wish, dream, pray and hope? Man just should communicate truthfully and openly to each other.
Sure, that everybody likes to gain a better life, but don’t we have conscience to do the right things on the way. And yes, we are human but it doesn’t mean, that we could act like an animal without proud, persistence, control, rules and soul. So, if you think, that no matter what the reason are, that even you have to give up everything for other woman, especially Indonesian woman, so go for it and take all the risks. Hopefully you would be happy and know what you do. One thing for sure, you don’t deserve the good things, you left behind.
We think at the end, everything depends on you and yourself. Everything, which happens in your life is beside God’s plan and help is your own choices and decision. So, you can’t blame your human nature. There is no excuse.
November 8, 2008 at 4:34 am
Another things about Indonesian women, some expats claim, that Indonesian women are easier to approach than their women in their countries; some of these women, is definitely throwing herselves to them on the first conversation.
Some claims, that they don’t have to make efforts to satisfy Indonesian women in bed. So, the sex with them is more relax. And yes, they should wine and dine these women if they want to keep these women longer for one or other reason. To make it easier, some expats make it through boyfriend – girlfriend term. Some, who are lucky enough, just have to buy a drink for this women, start a conversation, head to the hotel and say goodbye the next morning without complication.
But some, who are not lucky enough, who lingered too long and then would like to end the relationship got a very complicated and dangerous stalking and blackmailing from these women. Some should run for their life.
January 8, 2009 at 1:47 pm
I am an Indonesian woman married to ‘bule’. 2,5 years back to Jakarta the ‘heavenly made’ relationship turned to be ‘hell connections’
One thing I could conclude on too many marriages in Jakarta are falling apart : “I wish those girls have morality and strong values by not approaching or dating married men for whatever the reason is, and have a minute to think how about if they were on these men’s wives shoes”.
( Anyway finally my husband packed his stuff and decided to stay by his own .. well … that’s all about ‘it’ )
January 15, 2009 at 3:10 pm
Interesting posting! I just met a documentary film maker doing a film on this exact topic.
Here’s the posting, with her description. She is looking for expats who have faced marriage difficulties in moving to Asia.
http://www.thomascrampton.com/china/karen-mazurkewich-can-marriage-survive-asian-expat-life/
March 2, 2009 at 2:27 pm
@Parvita
Mbak Vit, as far as I know for my self, most of wives (not only expat wives) I know who have their husbands move to work in Jakarta have pretty much the same fear as those expat wives do…because let’s face it…It’s Indonesian women who live/reside/work in Jakarta they (wives) fear of, not Indonesian women in general. to be honest, we as Indonesians who lives outside of Jakarta have a stereotype that Jakarta is too ‘westernized’, too ‘free’, full of ‘weird’ lifestyles (at least for us ‘wong ndeso’) so the tempations for a husband is amazingly is too strong.
I, my self is about to marry a ‘bule’ this year, and honestly, when my fiancee asked me where in Indonesia we might live in the future, I suggested almost everywhere but Jakarta. No offense but Jakarta can not be considered what we propose as ‘Indonesia’ anymore if we’re talking about ‘culture’.
@Bule in Jakarta
As for you mentioned the two type of Indonesian women, the ayam type from kampung and the smart one, I have a question for you about the second type, are the smart one you mean is educated woman who have great career with fancy apartment and car, like to go to bars and cafe?…what about educated women who doesnt choose to be a carrer oriented woman and live in decent (aka poor) life in kampung?dare to make a third type?;)
@Lily Poppy Sue
I do feel sorry for what happened to your family…but I kinda smell some bit ‘underestimating attitude’ from what you call as ‘native’ (you’re not native? who is native anyways? anything but chinese?)Indonesian woman ( I understand how you then feel so to the maids) but…with all my respect…that kind of attitude will lead to some ‘racism’ against chinese Indonesian, because most of chinese Indonesian always considerate themself as not ‘native’ Indonesian (aka superior)……how about considering your self as other ethnic Indonesian..as we all know Indonesia consist of Javanese, Maduranese, Bataks etc and of course chinese origin. Relates to what you call Chinese Indonesian male who leave their family for native Indonesian maid, most of things that happen in Indonesia (sorry cant provide you with some statistic about this) is that the ‘boss’ kinda force them sexually…sometimes raping them…and treated like a slave. marrying the maids?hmmm….mostly no, just leave them pregnant and fired them,I guess. Sorry Mbak Vit…kinda out of the topic.
March 2, 2009 at 3:08 pm
@Lily Poppy Sue
You said:
“It’s true that no matter what, it is wrong to judge people, whom you don’t know generally and put them in one category.”
“Due to the experience, it’s hard to believe that men are faithful and that native Indonesian women are alright.”
Hmm….do you think you’re not judging people and put them in one category? I am ‘native Indonesian’ and of course not ‘chinese Indonesian’, well educated, comes from and lives in Kampung. I have MANY experiences (my sis and lots of friends)working with and for ‘chinese Indonesian’ aka ‘non-native Indonesian’ and none of those experiences lead to what we can call a respectfull and great one. We ‘native Indoensian’ all know how our ‘chinese Indonesian’ bosses and partners treated us, well educated ‘native’ with underestimating body language and vulgar unpolite words (and can u imagine and witness how to native indonesian maids?)..but honestly…I keep telling my self not to judge ‘chinese Indoensian’ as being ‘not all right’…but once again unfortunately…you just add a number of list. But no…am not gonna put you, whom I dont know, into the ‘box’ category okay?…let all readers here be the judge whether it is just a shalow judgement on ‘chinese Indoensian’ or it is the fact.
And related to the topic, how about blaming the men also instead of pouring some hot water all into Indonesian aka ‘native’ woman.
Peace;)
March 6, 2009 at 1:59 pm
Indonesian barmaids and girls looking for men are no different than any other desparate woman who thinks that when she hooks someone with money and status her life will be forever wonderful and all of her worries will be over. The trouble with this shallow belief is simply that if the girl is successful in hooking the bule of her dreams she will soon find out that he is exploiting her and she is using him and then the relationship will come to a grinding halt. How sad this is if the chicky has given all of her youthful years to a relationship with a sugar daddy who in actuality has no intention of taking their relationship to the next level
July 12, 2009 at 12:15 am
interesting topic. It is good to know those foreigners opinion about us ( indonesian, especially woman).
October 12, 2009 at 1:50 am
I do agree with asliwongjowo 100 % in responding on chinese’s attitude in general. Mostly they are ill mannered, arrogant and rude in treating their native Indonesian maids.
I think it is not tolerable anymore. However, chinese are not the original dwellers of this country. They are merely a flock of shameless strangers in Indonesia.
October 13, 2009 at 2:52 pm
that’s great man, i think i go as expat to indonesia jakarta, coz i am also orang indo di belanda, so while discovering my roots maybe i can meet those indonesian ladies,
but on the question if indonesian girl more exotic, i don’t no. i think just bule want’s to taste something different, like maybe in 50 years we are all light tab brown skin coz of inter marriage, so who cares?
October 21, 2009 at 12:34 pm
Wow…such an ironic life in the most populous Muslim country in the world. Well, I do believe that everyone has a moment of weakness, whether it be as harmless as a shopping frenzy or extreme as infidelity. However, the latter being the ultimate mess up in a relationship. Sometimes poverty leads to extremes, such as “using an overweight old fart bule” for personal welfare. I do apologize for the obsene description but I have seen this in Malls and Restaurants across Jakarta and I’m totally floored when I see a 20 something beautiful Indonesian girl with a 60 something barely able to walk in a straight line bule holding hands and all lovey dovey. Yes, I’m an attractive, highly educated expat wife who is not spoiled by the house staff . I still cook, occasionaly clean and look after my children. I treat my man like a king in his palace by being respectful, thoughtful, supportive, loving and trustful. I give him his space. I do agree that many Indonesian (not all) women are like scavengers looking for a meal ticket (men with money). Those who do fall prey (married men or men with commited relationships or lack of) are usually equipped with an empty ego, lonely, sad, confused, stressed to the max or just filthy animals who do not comprehend the meaning of loyalty. I have seen stunning expat wifes dumped for local girls becasue their husbands can dump them…I have seen many years of marriage exchanged for a day of lust and shrewd entertainment. And the question remains why? BTW, I have travelled extensively around the world, across many continents and Indonesia ranks at the top for corruption in marital ties. It’s truely unfortunate. I have spoken to young Indoneisan women about this issue and most of them respond that it’s easier then getting an education or working and it’s an “advance” in their improvished lifestyles. When asked about their conscious and the wifes that may possiblly lose a spouse, they said that the world is a competitive arena! Wow, so much for the human species being distinctive from the animal species…I suppose it’s the survival of the fittest…literally! I guess we expat wifes best as to dig up our boxing gloves and take stance! It’s going to be a dirty fight to the finish!
October 31, 2009 at 1:29 am
Eventhough expat wives may be very comfortable that their marriage is secure and that their relationship is based on love and trust everyone living in Jakarta should be aware that everyone has weak moments and that there are desparate individuals lurking in your homes purposely looking for every opportunity to swoop in and create chaos and unrest in your marriage. These women would do anything to have your lifestyle and level of financial security. Once they see an opportunity to meddle with your hubby the next step is to offer comfort from the storm… and we all know that the storm is more difficult to withstand when we don’t have close extended family support close by.
Yes we have each other and if we are totally steadfast in our marriage then nothing or nobody will be able to penetrate this trust and union but if we are stressed out, unsettled and maybe a little home sick then we are vulnerable to manipulation and subject to harassment.
Boxing gloves just don’t cut it.
November 4, 2009 at 4:31 pm
Dear Opinionated,
With all due respect, I’m a bit confused with your response? You seem to sway from negative to positive and again negative. So if a couple is truely grounded in their marriage, a moment of weakness will overtake? I don’t understand. So does the old addage, what the eyes don’t see, the heart can’t bleed? I do understand that their are women who lurk in the dark waiting to pounce on a good catch-considering that the catch is willing to give up a relationship he’s in (if committed). I think all men have cheated on their spouses in one way or another. Albeit, chats on the ol’cell phone with girls or visits to supposed “Family massage parlours”. Who knows. Especially, when the wife is away, the mouse comes out to play. Whatever the reason, its truely unfortunate. It happens. Can happen anywhere. But Jakarta ranks right up with the most notorious cities for broken family ties. Basically, we can only work hard to keep our marriages strong as you have alluded to. On the flip side, spouses can stray. So what can you do? Monitor them? And I agree whole heartdly that family is the safety net and a shoulder to lean on when times are bad. So what shall expat wifes do? I’m 200% sure that you understood Boxing Gloves as a figure of speech…won’t you agree that wifes would have to up the ante? Question is how?
November 6, 2009 at 4:26 am
Dear Lily,
Just want to say that the chances of infedelity in Jakarta are very high. Most likely expat wives who live there will want to make the best of it and try to keep a positive relationship going with their spouseand children. I really think that we all just need to manifest good things and spoil our spouses like crazy! Keep the positive and always the love. It takes more awareness and conscious effort to maintain a valued relationship and it’s worth it. Keep your connection and try to think of an expat marriage in a foreign country as an adventure and as an opportunity to build on your love and trust. Just don’t allow the inevitable opportunists to be able to see a weak moment and an opportunity to invade your relationship. Rise above the chaos and negativity. Keep the love.
Yes, boxing gloves just don’t cut it!! We must get out of the arena!!
Talk soon,
Opinionated
November 6, 2009 at 4:48 pm
Dear Opinionated,
I imagine that you are an expat wife here, as I am. As I have mentioned before, I’m a strong, educated loving mother and wife. I have no insecurites, however, sometimes say things that are shallow to my hubby because of certain observances in Jakarta. For instance, one of my fellow expat wife friends’ husband is an avid golfer who plays with the guys often. He always brags to his wife about how ‘friendly and beautiful the caddies are’. My hubby wants to take up golfing and when I bring things up like this he gets very defensive. I try not to allow my mind to become polluted with all the rubbish that I hear and see. However, it becomes quite a challenge and redirects my thinking. It’s a tough jungle to survive. Relationship wise that is. I heard a lady who had an extremely shy husband is contemplating to leave him after discovering he had casual girls call him and send text messages to him after he visited numerous night clubs and massage parlours during a handover in jakarta. She was in europe for two months waiting for kids to finish school when he was here ‘working’ on the new move/job. Now the lady is going back and forth between leaving or “rising above the chaos and negativity”. I suppose once trust is dented it’s difficult to mend what remains. Worst part is, he blamed her for not coming sooner to be with him. Scary! Well, Opinionated, shall she leave the ‘arena’ or tread deep murky water?
Waiting to hear from you…
Lily
November 7, 2009 at 1:45 pm
Dear Lily,
No I am no longer an expat in Jakarta but was for 8 years. We have some very good memories and some not so good ones. It was a balance I suppose. I’ve seen many marriages collapse in that environment and ours almost did too. I really just want to make all of the expat wives aware of their vulnerability because all of the expat men think they are friggin rock stars!!! Keep the home fire burning and try to bring him down to earth!!
What I mean by getting out of the arena is don’t lower yourself to compete with the homewreckers! Just turn your back on it all!!
November 9, 2009 at 9:04 am
Dear Opinionated,
I like the way you think. You seem to be a wise woman who is grounded. And yes, many Expat Men think they are rock stars here because Indonesian girls/women are the fuel for this illusion. Men have something that needs to stay conditioned and alive…ego. And I have seen how men feel around females here. Some of these men are so ugly, overweight, and are clueless about charm. However, when an Indo Ayam is all over them, flirting, giggling and whispering sweet nothings (in Bahasa, I presume?), they feel like kings of the world! And what the hell are married men doing in night clubs and raunchy bars in Jakarta in the first place? Esp, when wifes are away. As soon as the wife is back in town, they assume the role of wholesome, saintly hubby! This is ludicrous! So dear Opinionated, what shall the expat wifes do with their men? Esp the ones that come from very traditional homes. Standby. React. Accuse. Threaten. Leave. Like I said before, our marriage seems solid, knock on wood. And I don’t let the posion saturate my mind. However, I have to mention that I was quite annoyed one time when my hubby, kids and I went out for lunch at a golf club house and the waitress, who was stunningly attractive, was leaning litteraly a few inches away from my hubby’s face to take a order. Very flirtatiously, may i add. I was just coming back from the restroom. When she saw me she smiled. I smiled back. And became really upset when her friend pretended to drop a spoon and pick it up by bending at the waist, in a mini, right next to my hubby! For God’s sake, the wife and kids are there! My hubby pretended not to see anything. And some golfers, expat men, at the next table kept bragging about how cute their caddies were and how petite they were and how ‘helpful’ they were when they had pulled a muscle on the green. All this during a mid-day lunch with the family. For the sake of class, I dare not tread the sleazy low class bars and night clubs here, even the supposed high class ones, are a no-no. And I have heard disgusting occurances transpire…while supposedly loving expat men who are fathers and husbands race against time to hit as many clubs as possible. I even heard some night clubs pass out glasses to women upon entrance and condoms for guys! Wow! You can tell by now that I’m quite conservative. |It’s a no holds barred world in this city! So what do I do now? Abandon traveling overseas to see my family for the sake of keeping tabs on my man? I trust him wholeheartdly, however, in the line of business he’s in, he needs to entertain clients, many of whom are single. I’m confused…
November 9, 2009 at 9:12 am
Is Pravita still actively reading these blogs…would like to get an opinion from her…
November 9, 2009 at 9:50 am
Hi, I still follow this thread quietly. I don’t know what to say besides that I’m single and I don’t have the worries like you both do, I can’t force a guy to like me all the time and vise versa. It is interesting to see opinions and thoughts of expat wives, expats and others.
I am a firm believer that nobody from outside can ruin a marriage. Only the husband or wife can ruin it. I don’t believe in a third person, because if a marriage is strong, no other people can break into it. So if your partner can easily be persuaded by what is out there, it is just his quality or you have to look back at the quality of your marriage/relationship or the quality of yourself. Besides worrying about those things, if I was an expat wife, I would pick up something useful and interesting with the whole time and facilities that they have. Pick up new hobbies, discover people, learn the local culture, make the most out of life and make yourself interesting.
That’s my two cents.
November 9, 2009 at 4:12 pm
Hi Parvita,
Glad to see you here. You must be thinking that these expat wives need to busy themselves before they get sucked into the hell hole of Jakarta. Opinonated is already a veteran…she has left Jakarta after living her for 8 years. I have been here for a year. Like I have mentioned before, we do have a strong grounded relationship (husband and I). I do agree with you to a certain extent that a solid marriage can’t be spoiled by a third party unless a moment of weakness overcomes the guy (usuallay guys do the cheating, anyway) due to a lack of “quality” marriage. I also believe that there are varying levels of cheating, at least in the eyes of the spouse. And factors such as alcohol and single buddies can dilute the mind of a gentleman. I’m a strong believer that married men have no business in a clubs, esp the ones in Jakarta! And please do take into consideration that I respect Indonesian people and their culture. Not every girl/woman is an Ayam. AS in every country around the world, trash lurks in the darkness waiting to pounce on a weak man. ANd for the sake of this response, I would like to say that yes, I’m very busy with my family, active in school, art, pilates, reading, visiting museums and I can speak Bahasa-competently! However, Parvita, you must admit, and I know that you can agree with me on this (I have read many of your blogs and you have been quite aquainted with expats) that infidelity is quite alarming in Jakarta. The stats are staggering…I have never questioned my partner’s loyality, however, sometimes I wander…esp when he goes out with the guys. One lady I knew, her hubby was in oil and gas (oh dear!) had to entertain clients, take them to clubs and bars, ended up in a rut with his wife cuz she found messages and calls that were, “Strange”, for lack of a better word. So what now? Maybe its better to be single here and not an expat wife. And what exactly is the “expat wife”…how come no one ever talks about the “expat husband”? Like I said before, I’m educated and strong, I adhere to my family roots, care for my children and cook. This location is a joint move…husband and I are in it together…I suppose I don’t fit the “expat wife” stereotype. BTW, I really enjoy your blogs…very grounded, esp your responses…
Lily
November 9, 2009 at 5:47 pm
Hi, Lily,
When it comes to cheating, I would not say that men cheat more than women. You will be surprised. I agree with you, Jakarta is a city for men; sometimes these men that you described as “feeling like a rock star” thinks that they are the predators, but actually, they are the prey. Unfortunately, it takes years for these guys to learn the lesson.
Here is a bad news: it doesn’t matter how educated or how good you are in your career or how wonderfully interesting you are. If the guy wants to leave you, they will just leave you. You cannot tie a man so that they will be loyal to you, vise versa. On the other hand, even if there is temptation, if you don’t like the scene, then you won’t get into it.
I would love to see some expat men drop by to this post to see their view. I guess Jakarta is a test ground for expats, singles or couples.
Thank you for reading my blogs, I’m glad you like them!
November 10, 2009 at 12:29 am
Hi Parvita,
Actually when an expat hubby cheats on his loyal and sophisticated wife for a fling with an indonesian girl it is usually out of curiosity and a need for his male ego to be pampered and nurtured to a much greater degree than his expat wife is willing to give to him at the time. Men are emotional and vulnerable when their women and children are unsettled so there is more opportunity for an intruder to invade an expat marriage when the family is insecure in their surroundings and unfamiliar with the culture they now find themselves living in. The family connectiveness either becomes stronger and everyone pulls together closer or they tend to loose their footings somewhat for sometime and may even loose their roots all together. Expat families can be easily manipulated when everything they know is disrupted. And, by the way we expat wives are very worldly and well educated and will most likely understand how our man might have been manipulated into cheating on us with the bar girl, golf caddie or house maid. I can’t speak for all expat women out there but most of us are open minded enough to forgive our men and understand the value of keeping the family and marriage together. Many expat wives have sacrificed their careers, close family ties and the comforts of home so that together with their husbands they can build financial security in order to return to their beloved home with a little more financial freedom than when they left.
November 10, 2009 at 7:53 pm
Hi Opinionated,
I think when a husband cheat it’s because he has the chance and want to do it. And it has nothing to do with loyalty and sophistication of the wife. Even if there is a chance, if he doesn’t want to, he won’t.
November 10, 2009 at 1:35 am
Hi Parvita,
Your two cents are worthless until you have had the experience as an expat wife and mother. Try keeping everyones feathers intact in the new nest! Just imagine yourself as a bird and your family is relocated to a very different climate with all kinds of new predators. Imagine tossing your little ones out of the nest to spread their wings in this foreign and hostile environment! Most of all imagine feeling calm and happy. Imagine your hubby flying around looking for twigs and stuff to build a more secure home in a land that doesn’t have a supply of the same sort of twigs that keep his family secure and content! Now imagine his frustration and particularily the stress incured when he arrives home and finds that his wife and kids are in a state of flux and emotional insecurity. He will definately feel guilty and his self esteem will be deflated and then he may easily become prey to the many curious brightly colored feathered local birdies fluttering around. Especially when he feels frustrated and emotionally unstable because his wife and children are unhappy and unsettled in their new surroundings.
All this considered,most expat wives have done a remarkable job of keeping the home fires burning and as a matter of fact they all deserve to be congratulated on their ability to adapt and renew their homes. If you think that a distraction of a new hobby, job or extracuricular activity is the solution to happiness and contentment for the expat wife and mother then I’m sorry to say that you are totally off the mark. Expat wives must make their marriages and family a top priority even if this means sacrificing their own time and interests. On the flip side many expat wives enjoy the adventure and the opportunity to share new and exciting experiences with their hubby and kids. So you see dear, there are two sides to this coin. Keep your two cents to yourself!!
November 10, 2009 at 8:24 pm
Opinionated, your analogue doesn’t make sense. When a person get expatriated, they have a visit first to the country for recognition. Even their wives gets paid to visit the place to see if the place suits the family or not. Then they decide if they will accept to be expatriated or not. If both of you think that the place is not worth the offer your company is giving, you don’t have to accept the offer. Why risk your family to the “predators” that can jeopardize the family?
Isn’t that what happens when one decided to get married, men or women, expat or not? Do you think that being an expat wive deserves to be seen as an extraordinary supreme being for doing so?
Back to my topic: Jakarta makes men’s wildest dream come true.
November 10, 2009 at 2:19 am
Hi Lily,
Yes, by all means stay in Jakarta with your hubby and never underestimate your value to support one another in somewhat superficial and uncomfortable circumstances such as the golf club waittress episode you spoke of.
This behaviour was totally inappropriate and undoubtably your husband did not appreciate the intrusion. The next time a similiar situation arrises ask the waittress to excuse her behaviour. She will definately loose face and might even learn a lesson in respect.
I can’t imagine what would happen if the tables were turned and it was a male waiter to make a flirtatious gesture towards an indo mans wife!!
November 10, 2009 at 8:40 am
Dear Opinionated,
I can feel some pain from your responses…you seem to have overcome hurdles and cross unstable bridges. A absolutely agree with you that you haven’t tasted bittersweet life in jakarta unless you tasted it like an expat wife. It’s undeniably true that you give up everything for the sake of a move abroad. Everything. Family, friends careers, routines, ect. We do run into problems we never had and where is the safety net? A ‘classy wife’ won’t air out the laundry with the ladies at the gym or children’s soccer meet. It’s totally unhealthy to live in perpetual sadness. And you can;t ‘busy’ yourself to make the issues disappear. They won’t. You may temporarily forget…but some things burn into your heart and soul. I know some ladies that an army of Ayam cannot knock down their fort…but you know what, it has happened, secretly. You just see the lady withdrawn, isolated from everyone, losing weight, ect. She stands strong before the expat community, but broken inside. For lack of time, I will cut this short with one more comment. Opinionated, you have spoken eloquently. You seem sophisticated and strong and I raise my glass to you! Parvita, I would love to see some expat men, esp the ‘rock stars’ comments here. Please feel free to comment as well. I have taken up the hobby of blogging, I hope that this will keep my house strong!
Cheers,
Lily
November 10, 2009 at 8:45 am
Parvita and Opinionated,
Yes. Male ego is thy name of evil! It needs to be constantly fed. However, I have noticed that many of the men that do cheat are disgustingly overweight with ego-literaly! Fat, bald, pale, stained clothes and habitually drunk. Ok, ok this is a stereotype. I have seen good looking men do the same. They all have one thing in common…INSECURITY! Thats it. Even if you have problems within your family this is not the outlet. You work it out or move on. There is no redemption in cheating. Ever!
Cheers,
Lily
November 10, 2009 at 5:40 pm
Wow amazing thread Parvita. You have a knack of bring out the best and worst in your readers. This time we have Lilly Poppy Sue a racial elitist bemoaning the fate of her poor dad in the hands of those nasty indonesian maids. And if that was not bad enough we have to listen to the perfect wife in the form of Lily worrying that her husbands might slip the lead and fall under the spell of those “scavengers” and “animals”. She goes on to ridicule “ugly overweight” and “old fart” bules “barely able to walk in a straight line” because they have younger girlfriends. I presume that this is because she is (in her own words) “attractive”, “highly educated”, “unspoiled”, “strong” “thoughtful”, etc and therefore able to pass judgement on the indonesian people and men in general of whom she says “have all cheated on their spouses in one way or another”.
I read that in the USA 50% of marriages end in divorce. Is that due to Indonesians too? Or is it just that when an unhappy couple comes to Jakarta this acts as the catalyst. And its easy to see why this might happen if the women have the same attitude as Lily with her obvious low regard for men and superior attitude to indonesians. And when these divorces go to court then the big fight is over money and how much can be claimed from the husband. In this regard I bet the bule ladies are every bit as rapacious and accomplished as their Indonesian counterparts despite all these bogus claims not to be swayed by money.
November 10, 2009 at 8:37 pm
Yes, Platypus9, isn’t it interesting reading this long thread. Most of the time I hear from expat men during coffee breaks, lunch and after office at bars about Indonesian women and it is interesting to see how expat women thinks about them, too.
November 10, 2009 at 8:35 pm
Go for it Platypus I agree entirely. When I look at some of these skanky old ratbags the surprise is not that their husbands dumped them but that they got married at all.
And as for money they might not do it for your guy in the street but if it were say Warren Buffet, most of these same bule wives that call the indonesian girls golddiggers, would have their panties at their ankles before they could say ‘what sort of girl do you think I am Warren’.
November 11, 2009 at 7:46 am
Parvita,
Why has the vibe of your opinion changed? Is it becasue you have been swayed by the two buddies you asked to volunteer comments in this thread? This is truely mind boggling, afterall, what has happened to transparency with analogues? C’mon girl, I just commented on how ‘grounded’ your responses were. I suppose I have to get my feet wet a bit before commenting. Excuse you Platypus9, for passing judgement on someone you don’t know. I’m not perfect and never intended for anyone to think this. I wanted to make a point that I have no insecurites about myself as many ppl think an expat wife does when she is thought to accuse every girl as an Ayam. I’m not better then anyone, neither and don’t claim to be. Go back and read what I wrote, throughly, I have written about substantiated claims, I’m not embarking on a mission to point fingers at every Indonesian woman. This sh** exists EVERYWHERE, yes, in the US as well, I’m implying that it’s not so transparent as it is here in Jakarta. Perhaps my descriptions were a bit offensive to some ppl but they were mere observances. Which I’m sure even Indonesian ppl can vouch for me on this, I have Indonesian friends that are very uncomfortable and replused when they see the “old fart…ahem, old man with the 15 yr old Indonesian girl”. Hey what do I care, more power to them, let em live their lives. It’s disheartening to hear an expat wife that comes here with nothing more then to support her hubby with the new job only to discover that their family life falls apart. Because of whomever. Or whatever. Esp when they had an amicable relationship. And JD, I’m not even going to stoop to your level. I have a few words for you, “Ignorance can be tolerated”. C’est tout et dommage! Parvita, I would love to know what the guys tell you about Indonesian women. Hope it’s not offensive, considering you are Indonesian. And yes, we think about them all the time. As we think about the traffic, the malls, the weather, what shall we cook tonight, homework, grocery lists, ect. We have to busy ourselves with hobbies, right? It’s so interesting how ideas and opinions shift all the time…Oh and what is the ideal expat wife?
November 11, 2009 at 8:00 am
Question. Who posted the entry “Expat Marriages: difficult to survive in Jakarta?”
November 11, 2009 at 11:23 am
Well Lily, I think I stand in the same ground and not siding with you or anyone else. Maybe it is a shock for you to hear different opinions, I like different opinions therefore this blog. But no company unless you work for the army, forces anybody to be expatriated. I’ve known people that turned down the offer because the wife doesn’t like it here, despite of nice apartment and facilities the company offer. So the bird story is not comparable, in my opinion.
Jakarta, or other places, are testing grounds for families. But if the marriage has a strong bond, no matter what is out there, you won’t be interested. Keeping a family is universal effort, for everybody. Saying that, I can understand how expat wives must be when seeing how everything is more open here, plus they are far from their families so they have to deal with things themselves. But are you going to worry all the time? Of course not. Boxing gloves, no clubbing for hubby, c’mon.
And behind the title of this article, there is a question mark, meaning, is it true or not? I brought up this matter because my colleagues marriages collapsed here. Then it became a discussion, mainly started by expat men speaking generally over a beer or two about relationships, values, what they think of Indonesians, mistakes, etc, what were they thinking of when they ‘play around’. Then I also talked to those who are married and single, so I have some source.
Everybody is free to share their opinion here. Seems like Platypus and JD are expats, I don’t know their backgrounds, but different people see things differently (and they have their points, too!). Not that I agree with all their opinions. And it is interesting to read what people write in here, that’s why I usually just follow quietly.
Don’t worry too much, Lily, enjoy your stay in Jakarta. I hope you get the most out of it. People in here are friendly, so you can make friends easily if you feel lonely. Cheers.
November 11, 2009 at 3:05 pm
Parvita,
I knew that I liked you for some reason. And no, opinions don’t come as a shock to me, what does is the ‘tastless’ manner in which some ppl of very little abilities to express themselves via analogues do so in a grotesque way. I thought that you didn’t go to bars (I read your breif bio)? Anyway, I do agree with you that “Keeping a family is universal effort, for everybody ” and everywhere. And did the guys that fooled around have any regretts…”what were they thinking of when they ‘play around’. ”
…
And your right that no company forces expatriated ppl to stay, however, its easier said then done to leave if you “dn’t like the location”. Doesn’t happen. You usually grin and bare it or the wife usually leaves. I love being here. The culture, the help (though I still do most of the work), facilities, malls, restos, everything but the traffic.
Parvita, please do understand that I’m not worried (I have just read my responses and some do convey the feeling of being overwhelmed) just racking my “Busy Brain”. A lot of the stories you hear within the expat community, inclding from my Indonesian friends, are disheartning and make you wander a bit. Hence, the reason for this thread, I’m sure.
Yes I love my husband very very much and treat him like the king he deserves to be treated. And if he strays for whatever reason and gets caught, he will get the short end of the stick. Not via malicious money wars as stated by a blogger. When you decieve the wife, you decieve the kids and yourself. And have to live for the rest of your life (if the guy has a conscious) knowing your a low life cheating bastard who gave up the family for a fling. Hmmm, curiousity killed the cat. Of course it takes two to tango…man is just as guilty as the girl.
Saya suka Indonesia. Itu cantik, exotic dan negeri yang menarik!
See you soon-lah!
Cheers,
Lily
November 11, 2009 at 3:44 pm
Lily, I don’t go to bars on weekly basis as I used to, I just get bored of the bar scene. Now I only go if it is against the traffic or if an old friend would like to have a beer or two. I think I’m getting old, the body cannot tolerate that lifestyle anymore.
I understand your fear and what others fears, too. But lets not worry too much of things we cannot control of. I hope you and your family enjoy your stay in Indonesia. It is a pretty country (though I sometimes get frustrated with the politics….but that’s another different story).
November 12, 2009 at 7:18 am
Hi Parvita,
You said:
(But no company unless you work for the army, forces anybody to be expatriated. I’ve known people that turned down the offer because the wife doesn’t like it here, despite of nice apartment and facilities the company offer. So the bird story is not comparable, in my opinion.)
Actually Parvita I don’t really think that you understand the analogy of the bird story. What I am saying is that the whole family has decided that they would like to have an adventure and are willing to fly away to a new land for a few years or so. However sometimes ppl don’t really understand how much they have given up until it is gone. This is when culture shock sets in and things can really get shaken up in relationships as well as their sense of self esteem. People who are uprooted albeit by their own choice are actually very vulnerable and somewhat unsettled for some time. This is when an opportunist might take advantage of someone for their own benefit as in the case of a housemaid, bargirl or even an office collegue who flirts with the expat man or woman.
Jakarta is full of very desparate women who would give anything to have a chance to live in a better situation and country some day. It’s just a horrible place to feel safe and secure no matter how strong your marriage bond might be.
You know it may seem to you that many of the expat wives are kind of spoiled and complainers. Particularily when you see first hand at the office, all of the financial advantages that the expats have over the local Indonesians. This may be kind of true in one sense but I’m just asking you to empathise a little with the family that has been uprooted and try to swallow the acceptance pill in order to tolerate some of their acting out and distructive behaviour.
Expats don’t think of themselves as better than Indonesians. Most of them are just there to do a job and to get paid as well as they can in order to return to their homes with enough savings to pay for a house and send their kids to good schools.
My opinion is valid and the bird story is actually true!! Just think about it and you will understand that if your nest has been destroyed before the little ones have taken flight and you are then migrated to a totally different climate and environment to rebuild your nest, even if there are advantages , you and your family will be traumatized. Hopefully you and your hubby will be armed with the skills, ability and foresight to overcome the cultural and environmental obstacles that will fall in your path. Just don’t be surprised if another bird tries to distract one of you by providing false and superficial emotional comforts from the unsettlement encountered at home.
November 12, 2009 at 10:27 pm
Which comes back to the whole idea: why would the bird destroy his own nest? What does the ‘local’ birds have or give that is lacking in his own nest?
November 13, 2009 at 10:15 am
Lily, I assume ‘the tastless manner in which some ppl of very little abilities to express themselves via analogues do so in a grotesque way’ refers to me? Actually I thought that I expressed myself rather well. And whilst we are on the subject of expressing ourselves, I would like to point out that your sentence should read ‘the TASTELESS manner in which some PEOPLE of very little ABILITY express themselves via analogues etc’. I could go on to correct all of your spelling and grammar mistakes but it would make this a very long post. So I will just highlight a few of my personal favorites; because = because, truely = truly, replused = repulsed, breif = brief and decieve = deceive (remember i before e except after c). But in the spirit of your statement ‘ignorance can be tolerated’ I will not dwell on this further.
November 14, 2009 at 1:22 am
Parvita,
Good point. Let me tell you why I think the local bird may have something valuable to offer the expat man.
The male usually makes the nest but the female feathers it and takes care of the little chicks. When the female bird and the little ones are upset and unsettled they will act out in sometimes annoying and unusual ways. They will not be contented in the way that they were in their indigenous home. Hense, the male bird will also be in a state of flux. He will be disrupted and somewhat confused about who he is and how he will relate to new emotional and cultural issues that he is encountering at home and at work. The man just wants everything to be back to normal and all he can do is try to support his family the best way he can. He feels responsible for the family and will try his best to help everyone overcome their troubles but will eventually grow tired of trying to make everyone happy. All he really wants is the comfort of a loving female who is contented, settled and happy. It may now be quite possible that the man will either look for a distraction or allow someone to distract him because his male ego is bruised and he is very vulnerable to the attention of a local female who makes him feel content the way his wife used to do. He is content with the local woman because she makes him feel good by appealing to his male ego.
It is only human nature for a man to want to feel that his woman is content, secure and happy with what he provides for her. Men need to feel that they are successful in keeping the home nest contented and happy. This is intrinsic to the male ego.
So tell me how you think an expat man who is working in a very different cultural environment will feel when he is constantly worried about how his wife and kids are feeling and adapting? Especially when he arrives home after a long hard working day and finds that his wife and or kids are upset, angry and complaining because their tolerance levels are lowered due to their emotional insecurities in the new home with maids, drivers, guards, etc. The expat’s home privacy is usually given up and this alone will compound an expat wives ability to feel settled and at home because there are so many issues to deal with when the house help disrupts their days. Most new expats don’t understand how to work with house hold help and usually give the maid too much space to intrude in their family privacy.
So you can see why a man might be distracted from the confusion in his need to feel settled and fulfilled by a woman who is happy, content and at home in this new environment. In my opinion, this is one very good example of why a man might temporarily or permanently forfeit his marriage for a relationship with a local woman.
Just remember that when the expat guy forfeits his family for a local woman, the tables will turn when the expat repatriates to his home country and brings his new woman with him. How will she settle into the new nest? Will she be happy away from her friends, family and familiar home and culture?
It seems like a vicious circle to me. Maybe all of this upset and confusion could be eliminated if the expat families talk it out and seek guidance and counseling to overcome their relationship issues.
So to answer your question. The local bird is happy and content in her familiar environment and she is able to give the foreign bird emotional support and a feeling of being happy and content with his new environment. She is also willing and able to appeal to his male ego while at the same time his wife is trying to overcome her disrupted feelings and also trying to settle the kids into a regular routine and happy home environment.
The male ego is a very powerful state of mind and not all men are able to handle it or keep it under control in order to maintain order and peace.
Yes, my busy brain!!
Author: parvita
Comment:
Which comes back to the whole idea: why would the bird destroy his own nest? What does the ‘local’ birds have or give that is lacking in his own nest?
November 16, 2009 at 8:31 am
JD, fantastic comeback! You have gone from an ill mannered writer to an English teacher. That’s an upgrade. Great, now you can edit all the responses on this thread. Remember, mechanics, grammar and of course spelling! Spelling always counts! Ah, you must have a lot of time to spare. And this is truly a great way to consume time…correcting errors! Classic. I suppose a new blog with the title “The Pedagogy of Blogging” might come as an amusing, thought provoking, and spirit lifting read. What do you think Parvita? Otherwise, edit away!
Just a side note, I think my English is a lot better then native speakers that I know. Esp since English is my third language. Oh, is that a gasp I hear? :-}
November 16, 2009 at 10:36 am
Dear Opinionated,
Your eloquent analogy is misunderstood simply because no one cares to read between the lines. I do agree that it’s quite difficult to adjust in a new environment. Esp maintaining current relationships amidst new expatriation. There are many factors that contribute to stress. And stress is a contributing factor to straying in a marriage. Esp when the environment is a breeding ground for lust, lure and temptation. Even when stability, love and trust exist, a moment of weakness may transpire leading to a faltering lifetime commitment.
On the flip side of the coin, to label every Indonesian girl/woman as “predatory” is presumptuous. The concept that an “Indonesian chick (ayam?) lures a white man away from the spouse” is blasphemous for many reasons. Yes, every one of us has a moment of weakness. We are human and tempted by what we should not do. However, a strong willed male or female, (sober, I have never been drunk, not sure what happens when an ability to make decisions is impaired), will remember values, principles and commitments before taking up an action such as cheating. Also, I believe that no matter the race the person is cheating with, if it’s in them to cheat they will do it in their home country too.
I hope that people will sympathize with expat spouses, esp the ones that have gone through the trials and tribulations of marriages during expatriation. I know women that have had spouses cheat on them while in Indonesia. Did these guys cheat before? Who knows? But they were caught here and it was a painful ordeal for the whole family.
I know that some people may become annoyed by the comment I made earlier ( ‘Esp when the environment is a breeding ground for lust, lure and temptation.’) But look around in the bars and clubs. Beautiful women dancing on table tops, giving out cell numbers and winking at men and endless streams of alcohol. This is lust. Lure and temptation follow. Question is, can a man easily say “no”. Esp when he’s out with the guys (single and married pals) and the wife is away for a month or two, packing and waiting for schools to end. Should he fulfill his intimate desires? Have a one night stand and forget about it? Should he or should he not? Many expat men face these scenarios, esp during transitional stages. In the end, it’s ultimately up to the man to stray or stay away. And ppl shouldn’t be so quick to label expat wives as “fat asses, ugly, insecure”, and “skanky old ratbags”. This is a nasty attempt to stereotype and defame women during expatriation.
November 16, 2009 at 12:14 pm
Lily,
My sentiments, regarding JD’s comments, exactly!